Fat Tires?

[wdave0]

So now a proposal to improve racing by going to wider tires. Nuts! Pirelli is trying to say that more grip will increase passing. How. Shorter braking zones, higher corner speeds etc won't help. The best show would be to have way too much power for available grip and relatively less grip and aero to put the emphasis back on driver skill

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wdave0

So now a proposal to improve racing by going to wider tires. Nuts! Pirelli is trying to say that more grip will increase passing. How. Shorter braking zones, higher corner speeds etc won't help. The best show would be to have way too much power for available grip and relatively less grip and aero to put the emphasis back on driver skill

Agreed. But, fans here keep saying they want fat tires. Maybe F1 is listening to the fans?

[Adam43]

Again F1 listens to the fans. What do you expect when all they do is whinge?
Stop asking for things and then maybe we will stop getting changes to the points system, super licence points systems, mechanisms to promote over taking, punishment for drivers, and the like.



Be careful what you wish for has never been more apt.



BTW, I like the idea. The idea is it goes hand in hand with more power, I thought.

Still, maybe it's a rubbish idea. Boo.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Agreed. But, fans here keep saying they want fat tires. Maybe F1 is listening to the fans?

Yeah about bloody time! How many years have we been saying? I've always wanted a return to big rear tyres, not necessarily 70s, but certainly pre-93

[wnut]

Fat tyres and less downforce would be good, with the proviso that the tyres are not merely fat cauliflowers that we currently have, the tyres need to be durable and fit to race on! We cannot have tyres that fall apart the first time the driver tries to lean on them.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yeah about bloody time! How many years have we been saying? I've always wanted a return to big rear tyres, not necessarily 70s, but certainly pre-93

But if they did that, what would happen to the handling of the cars?

They would be a lot more stuck than they are now. The back ends would never step out. Ever.

What are you going to do then? Upgrade the engines to 1,200 HP?

Then, many tracks could no longer host them because they would be doing 280 MPH before the braking zone at the end of the track.

On the other hand, the 1967 cars, still famous for how hard they were to drive, and the drivers who drove those cars say they had considerably more horsepower than the chassis could handle, had barely over 400 HP.

If you're going to go to wider tires, you would need to make a big reduction to downforce at the same time, or the racing would get even more processional.

I would argue for keeping the tires as they are now, and just doing the downforce reduction. Depending on how much downforce you took off, they could end up very tail-happy.

[Tucky]

F1 may be listening to fans, but they're not listening closely enough and picking bits here and there rather than looking at what's being said in whole. Everyone' saying wider tyres AND more horsepower AND less downforce together. All F1 has done is taken the sentence and replaced "and" with "or".

A problem I have is that with so much electronics and computer mapping of the engines, some of the issues driver's had to face in the 80's are nullified now by some computer wizardry. I'm torn because I generally champion F1 being at the forefront of technology.

[GORDON STREETER]

Can't see that It'll make any difference as everybody will have them, the same drivers will win !

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Can't see that It'll make any difference as everybody will have them, the same drivers will win !

It's more a matter of visual appeal and passing The 400hp formula ford F1 cars of the 60's were very exciting to watch, way more power than traction, long braking zones for passing, sliding, squirrelly anytime but straight, no wings so two cars could successfully race nose to tail. Not to mention the variety of engine types and sounds. The racing has become very sanitized.

[Razor]

Fat tyre cars make the racing world go round

[Sodemo]

Its only something that people have been saying for about 15-20 years. I guess it takes time for the F1 people in power to hear the bottom feeders of society.

Fatter rear tyres would be a great thing, drivers could get sideways and regain grip back easier, mostly at low speeds. If anyone remembers A1GP, those cars had quite wide rear tyres and they could slide about, we certainly aren't talking about 1970s style drifts through corners, but simply getting more sideways out of a corner. The slip angles change and the rear grip window becomes larger, less digital, more analogue.

Of course it would require quite a change to the cars in terms of weight distribution, but seeing as they redesign these things year in year out anyway, that isn't a major issue. Now all we need is to widen the cars again to 2200mm and we might have a formula worth its name again.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I must be the only person in the whole world who thinks that, given the immense quality of racing in a midpack in 2014, as long as Merc can be caught then we'll have the worlds best motorsport series!

What is wrong with some people? All the F1 fans ever seem to want is a return to the days before F1 got computerised. That's what's known as progress. If we get the things the fans want, the argument against F1 will change to 'it's stuck in the 70s' when the generation of fans who want it to be in the 70s aren't going to be around for as long as the generation who don't.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I really don't get the call for "fat tyres" and the different rim sizes that were being callled for and tested last year.

The tyres like every other part of the cars should look proportionate.

Wide tyres on the current cars would look stupid, just like the narrow rear wings did a few seasons ago.

Fat tyres were from the slippery (low drag) = aerodynamic days, today F1 is a High drag = downforce formula that should be looking to keep the contact patch minimal.

With the downforce and larger contact patches, all the under/oversteering that we saw last season will disappear, with the cars looking to be on rails again.

Right now Tyres are one of the dew things that are just about right in F1.

[Finski]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

I must be the only person in the whole world who thinks that, given the immense quality of racing in a midpack in 2014, as long as Merc can be caught then we'll have the worlds best motorsport series!

What is wrong with some people? All the F1 fans ever seem to want is a return to the days before F1 got computerised. That's what's known as progress. If we get the things the fans want, the argument against F1 will change to 'it's stuck in the 70s' when the generation of fans who want it to be in the 70s aren't going to be around for as long as the generation who don't.

I agree about last years racing, was incredible, best racing I've seen in F1 for many years. Baffles me to hear racing fans saying its dead now or that they have no interest, purely because of the sound, or the look of the noses. Sure the V8/V10/V12 may have sounded better but it is what it is, I appreciate what this amazing machine is and what it is capable of and I'm loving the wheel to wheel racing. There are places F1 could improve but I certainly look forward to the future of it.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Fat tyres were from the slippery (low drag) = aerodynamic days, today F1 is a High drag = downforce formula that should be looking to keep the contact patch minimal.

With the downforce and larger contact patches, all the under/oversteering that we saw last season will disappear, with the cars looking to be on rails again.

I personally don't think that the high drag cars are a good thing at all. For a start, if a driver gets a sniff of a slipstream, its pretty much an automatic pass. In years gone by, drivers have been able to follow much closer, but get less slipstream. So then you have these cat and mouse battles, which these days are almost totally gone. Drivers don't really "battle" any more for position, they just "glide past". If you go and watch some races from say the 80s or early 90s, take a note of how close cars can actually follow one another, its much closer than they are able to now.

Also to say that the over and understeering will vanish is not correct at all. The cars still still have to be balanced. No driver / team will go out onto a track with a car that just terminally understeers in every corner, whether that means reducing the rear aero or running less rear camber, altering the weight distribution, that's all for the teams to decide.

A1GP cars had much wider rear tyres and the cars were far from on rails, or understeered at every corner. I would say that the A1GP cars were actually pretty spectacular. I wasn't much of a fan of the concept or the series in general, but the racing was always pretty good to watch.

[Tucky]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

A1GP cars had much wider rear tyres and the cars were far from on rails, or understeered at every corner. I would say that the A1GP cars were actually pretty spectacular. I wasn't much of a fan of the concept or the series in general, but the racing was always pretty good to watch.

But look at the downforce on the car, minimal compared to current cars.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Exactly A1 cars were more slippery aero than high drag downforce, so for them the wider tyres worked.

Sodemo, I agree that could do with removing some of the drag/downforce and push F1 back towards simpler looking designs like the A1 Cars, but until then I don't think we don't need bigger tyres

[Sodemo]

But when you are coming out of a hairpin at 50 mph the aero isn't doing a great deal anyway, thats where the spectacular slides occur. I agree though that a modern F1 car does have a lot more aero in general than a A1GP car, that much is true. It is the way forward though, more mechanical grip, less aero grip (which is what needs to occur).

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

But when you are coming out of a hairpin at 50 mph the aero isn't doing a great deal anyway, thats where the spectacular slides occur. I agree though that a modern F1 car does have a lot more aero in general than a A1GP car, that much is true. It is the way forward though, more mechanical grip, less aero grip (which is what needs to occur).

I have thought the same for years as far as mechanical versus aero grip is concerned..

The racing at the moment is exciting though, so do we need wider tyres, maybe with increased HP ?

[Pingguest]

Wider tyres tend to have a smaller slip ratio, although they are less predictable and more sensitive to road imperfections. I do not believe that with the current technology, wider tyres have much to offer.

[MikeManNZ]

The thing is that A1GP was a cleaner car because it was a spec chassis.

As long as you have F1 designers looking for any advantage they can get a rules set will not end up with a clean design like the A1GP and designers are good at finding holes in rule books to get more down force.

IMHO the way forward is LESS regulation not more, yes the big money teams will end up with a VERY fast car but there is the possibility that a smart 25 year old engineer at a low budget team could have a brainwave and design a car that is a step forward and competitive, that will NEVER happen when you are iterative testing for the last 0.01% of improvement like we are today. That takes huge staff, budgets and facilities (CFD Computer Farms, Wind Tunnels etc.) and money always wins that fight.

A good set of rules should cover 5 sides of A4 paper max at 10 point types.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by MikeManNZ

IMHO the way forward is LESS regulation not more, yes the big money teams will end up with a VERY fast car but there is the possibility that a smart 25 year old engineer at a low budget team could have a brainwave and design a car that is a step forward and competitive, that will NEVER happen when you are iterative testing for the last 0.01% of improvement like we are today. That takes huge staff, budgets and facilities (CFD Computer Farms, Wind Tunnels etc.) and money always wins that fight.

A good set of rules should cover 5 sides of A4 paper max at 10 point types.

Cannot agree any more. I'd like to see innovation, evolution and progress in F1 in more than just incredibly thin sections of the regulations.

[chillibowl]

after 100 plus years of developing the automobile i wonder what innovation looks like for the motor racing industry?

modest gains in energy recovery and greater fuel efficiency without sacrificing power may be interesting work for people with engineering degrees but does little to fuel anyone else's imagination.

personally i see no reason why F1 shouldnt be encouraged to look back at those 100 plus years and see what worked and what didnt.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

after 100 plus years of developing the automobile i wonder what innovation looks like for the motor racing industry?

The DeltaWing was a very good peek at what would happen. Many hated the looks of it. The Chaparrals were ugly too, but it was fun to see if they would work. When the DW came out, many thought the ultimate solution would be a conventional, rectangular car, not a triangular car. Could be. The way the rules are now, we don't get to find out.

On thing I'm sure of, if the rules were very open and regulated mostly fuel consumption and safety, the cars now would be going the same speed as the ones we have now, but doing it on 2/3, maybe less, of the fuel they use now.

And lots of interesting ideas would have emerged in the last few years.

Airplane design seems pretty static these days, but there is little doubt the future is "flying wing"/"blended wing" designs. Boeing is trying to get the military to fund development of the idea for a military freighter. After people have a chance to get used to the odd look, it will be possible to extend it to passenger jets.

With racing, when you are looking for any sort of advantage, you don't have public acceptance of the look of your car holding you back, so innovation can progress faster.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

There's a reason why war increases advancement. It's because there are no rules, and what people think about it doesn't matter as long as it works better than the rest. F1 needs this lack of regulations to actually advance. The cars have hardly changed since the early 90s (the most dramatic change arguably coming in last season, which Imo was actually fascinating to see) but when you look at Adrian Newey's idea of what an unregulated F1 car could look like, maybe that would solve popularity issues as well as this regulation problem.