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Old 12 Jul 2014, 23:14 (Ref:3433287)   #1
Razor
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Alternate fuels instead of hybrid systems

With the less than warm reception that Formula One has got with the current 1.6L Turbo V6 hybrid power unit, could Formula One think outside the box and use "alternate fuels" (such as bio-ethanol) rather than a combo of a combustion engine and a electric power system? It could mean to reintroduction of bigger engines (better sounding V8's and V10's) and refuelling (meaning more tactical uses over the race) but it would be more greener than the use of potentially hazardous and environmentally damaging battery systems.
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Old 12 Jul 2014, 23:19 (Ref:3433291)   #2
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Well, if you are minded, you can put together a biofuel is bad argument together as much as you can a hybrids are bad argument.

Isn't there already an element of biofuel in F1, or ami thinking LM?
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Old 14 Jul 2014, 15:06 (Ref:3433838)   #3
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IIUC there is or was already an element. However, first generation biofuels are not an environmental solution (food versus fuel). It's not an alternative to hybrid technologies (not that any technology is perfect, mind). While I'd rather than the rules go down a similar direction to Le Mans (set fuel per lap, use it how you want - with a maximum supply cost to independent teams and keeping the engines per season rule), there's nothing actually wrong with the new V6s.
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Old 14 Jul 2014, 21:25 (Ref:3433947)   #4
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Alternate fuels? Do you mean diesel at one race and petrol at the next? Alternatively, perhaps we could propose using an alternative fuel.
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Old 14 Jul 2014, 22:54 (Ref:3433958)   #5
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Alternate fuels? Do you mean diesel at one race and petrol at the next? Alternatively, perhaps we could propose using an alternative fuel.
Smarty pants...
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Old 15 Jul 2014, 03:25 (Ref:3433994)   #6
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For me, Formula One is not suited for efficiency. But with the current times, they have to.

How about hydrogen ICE?
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Old 15 Jul 2014, 04:08 (Ref:3434002)   #7
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Betting on a pure alternative fuel engine doesn't seem like a great idea because we don't see a big industry push in that direction. Besides, a hybrid drivetrain with KERS can work with petrol, diesel, and alternative fuels.
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Old 15 Jul 2014, 04:56 (Ref:3434011)   #8
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v16's running liquid hydrogen fuel and liquid oxygen oxidizer.

Now you're talking!

They'd go like rockets then!
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Old 16 Jul 2014, 13:01 (Ref:3434463)   #9
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For me, Formula One is not suited for efficiency. But with the current times, they have to.

How about hydrogen ICE?
Personally I think H2 is a dead end for cars. It's a bugger to store, requires a hat load of energy to make (although that can be done using solar/wind, but it's yet another stage of conversion where inefficiencies occur)), and requires massive infrastructure change (more than electric I reckon).

I'd go pure electric. Sod what they sound like.
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Old 17 Jul 2014, 11:01 (Ref:3434842)   #10
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You're not the only person thinking hydrogen is a dead end. Battery/flywheel electric has the advantage of being flexible where the energy comes from. The challenge there is battery storage - the range extender being a useful thing (supposedly a use for Wankels?).
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Old 17 Jul 2014, 12:25 (Ref:3434870)   #11
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You're not the only person thinking hydrogen is a dead end. Battery/flywheel electric has the advantage of being flexible where the energy comes from. The challenge there is battery storage - the range extender being a useful thing (supposedly a use for Wankels?).
I think that Newey proved quite convincingly that ballast was more efficient than KERS and batteries.

Rosberg then proved that you can drag a dead KERS unit around for half a GP and still finish second, so they would not seem to be much use in the economy stakes either.

"Simplificate and add lightnes" worked for Chapman and would probably be hugely more efficient than KERS.

P.S. Wankels give huge power but they are very inefficient, turbine perhaps?
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Old 17 Jul 2014, 12:28 (Ref:3434872)   #12
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Alternate fuels? Do you mean diesel at one race and petrol at the next? Alternatively, perhaps we could propose using an alternative fuel.
6 alternative fuels, throw a dice to see which fuel is used in the race 5 mins before the cars are due on the grid!
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Old 17 Jul 2014, 15:32 (Ref:3434907)   #13
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I think that Newey proved quite convincingly that ballast was more efficient than KERS and batteries.

Rosberg then proved that you can drag a dead KERS unit around for half a GP and still finish second, so they would not seem to be much use in the economy stakes either.

"Simplificate and add lightnes" worked for Chapman and would probably be hugely more efficient than KERS.

P.S. Wankels give huge power but they are very inefficient, turbine perhaps?
He may have proved it with the tech at the time, but the tech has improved much over the last 2 years, and of course the amount of storage was artificially limited to a low level at the time. I seriously doubt it's true now.
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Old 17 Jul 2014, 15:33 (Ref:3434908)   #14
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6 alternative fuels, throw a dice to see which fuel is used in the race 5 mins before the cars are due on the grid!
I think they should be powered by Unicorn tears.
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Old 20 Jul 2014, 14:57 (Ref:3435880)   #15
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IIUC there is or was already an element. However, first generation biofuels are not an environmental solution (food versus fuel). It's not an alternative to hybrid technologies (not that any technology is perfect, mind). While I'd rather than the rules go down a similar direction to Le Mans (set fuel per lap, use it how you want - with a maximum supply cost to independent teams and keeping the engines per season rule), there's nothing actually wrong with the new V6s.
I would actually like that set fuel per lap rule, would give more freedom in engine design. To attract car manufacturers, the technilogy should be road relevant. But what's relevant for Renault isn't for Ferrari. Set fuel per lap and ress regulation otherwise would enable different power unit solutions.

A problem might be though that one solution would end up being way superior and other engines would have no business. Plus that might raise costs as I could see some manufacturers developing different power unit solutions at the same time to see what's the best.
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Old 27 Jul 2014, 13:46 (Ref:3438766)   #16
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Alternate fuels? Do you mean diesel at one race and petrol at the next? Alternatively, perhaps we could propose using an alternative fuel.
I tip my hat to you good person.
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