Lites / LMP3

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I
I find the fact that the DP02s are actually mixed up with the P3s to be decidedly unimpressive.

DPO2, 534kg
LMP3, 900kg.

I think there is a reason. 336kg's worth of reason. I don't know... but, horsepower and weight is pretty simple science to understand.

[Matt]

[TheMightyM]

How about an endurance race for LMP3s (and other classes) at Sebring in November or December? Per S365:

IMSA could hold an end-of-year non-points event at Sebring International Raceway, aimed at its pro-am, global-spec classes, according to the sanctioning body’s CEO Ed Bennett.

Bennett revealed to Sportscar365 that the concept, currently under the working title of “IMSA Encore,” could feature a combination of LMP3, GT3, GT4, GT Cup and MPC machinery in an endurance race format.

While the concept is still being evaluated, Bennett said it could debut as early as next year.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

DPO2, 534kg
LMP3, 900kg.

I think there is a reason. 336kg's worth of reason. I don't know... but, horsepower and weight is pretty simple science to understand.

Didn't say there wasn't a reason. Just said I find it unimpressive.

But this IS part of why I didn't like the idea of LMP3 being part of this series. If the cars aren't substantially quicker than the older(and by many measurements, outdated) cars, eventually participants are going to start asking "why are we paying to much more for these cars?"

It's not healthy for the long-term.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

DPO2, 534kg
LMP3, 900kg.

I think there is a reason. 336kg's worth of reason. I don't know... but, horsepower and weight is pretty simple science to understand.

900 to 534 is 366kg which is an even bigger disparity between the two. I kinda agree with you F-Fox, imo lmp3 is a waste of time but the ACO decided to monopolize the p2 class with 4 cars, of which the Riley seems like it'll never have much if any more takers so you can say 3. That means the rest of the builders are stuck doing p3, which also has a tender, or p1, which requires more money than most are willing to spend.

[Rcz]

The LMP3 is the ACO's answer to the DP. In fact they basically are. The engines sound the same, both are cheap, have a short wheelbase.ect. ect.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

900 to 534 is 366kg which is an even bigger disparity between the two. I kinda agree with you F-Fox, imo lmp3 is a waste of time but the ACO decided to monopolize the p2 class with 4 cars, of which the Riley seems like it'll never have much if any more takers so you can say 3. That means the rest of the builders are stuck doing p3, which also has a tender, or p1, which requires more money than most are willing to spend.

Well, hold on, I wouldn't say LMP3 is a waste of time. Not in and of itself, anyway. It's more accurate to say they're not living up to their potential, or achieving what they should.

Pricewise LMP3 slips in nicely between Group CN and LMP2, and with CN being all open-top(despite Oreca's concept, but I think poor timing killed that more than anything else) it appeals to drivers who don't like open-top cars, but I think it needs some work on the performance side.

But CN cars have occasionally outpaced them in VdeV(and the LMP3s didn't exactly blow away the CNs at the 3x3H races in Dubai, either), and as we've seen they're not greatly outpacing the DP02s. LMP3 needs some work to really suit it's pricetag, and I see no reason it can't be done - just look at what Ginetta did simply by putting a more powerful engine in the back. Even before they tweaked the aero the G57 was a ton faster with that extra power.

And frankly I don't think they need a whole lot. Drop 100kg and add 50 horsepower and the P3s could probably smash both CN and(especially) the DP02s more than sufficiently without being too quick for the Am drivers that are expected to support the class. And I don't think that could require too much work - a well designed car requires ballast to get up to the minimum weight to begin with, and more than a few groups have indicated that the engine may be capable of more than it's producing.

[Rcz]

I prefer a series with lmp3 anf gt4 cars with races that last 2 and half hours.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by TF110

900 to 534 is 366kg which is an even bigger disparity between the two. I kinda agree with you F-Fox, imo lmp3 is a waste of time but the ACO decided to monopolize the p2 class with 4 cars, of which the Riley seems like it'll never have much if any more takers so you can say 3. That means the rest of the builders are stuck doing p3, which also has a tender, or p1, which requires more money than most are willing to spend.

Since we are nitpicking ... the minimum weight is 668kg with the driver.

And the LMP3 seems to be a two horse race. Ginetta ran away and Adess are stuck with a product that nobody seems to want.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Didn't say there wasn't a reason. Just said I find it unimpressive.

How much faster do you want them than be? P2 times? These cars are designed to be an entry point to prototypes.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TF110

900 to 534 is 366kg which is an even bigger disparity between the two.

Excuse me. 366, 336.... I was a bit hung over.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

How much faster do you want them than be? P2 times? These cars are designed to be an entry point to prototypes.

An entry point to prototype? That's laughable. They're nearly twice the price of Group CN(or more, depending on the specific CN car). That's not an entry point.

Group CN is an entry point. The Elan DP02 is an entry point. LMP3 is not an entry point.

And no, I don't want LMP2 times out of them. They don't need to run LMP2 times. They just need to be noticeably, consistently quicker than the DP02s - enough to justify the increased price tag. Like I said already, drop 100kg and add 50 horsepower and that'd probably do the trick.

They should not be slow enough for the Elan DP02 to qualify 4th overall.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

LMP3 is not an entry point.

It is in the world of IMSA.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

It is in the world of IMSA.

Yeah, because IMSA is the end all be all of the matter.

I's not even entry level in IMSA, though - they're hanging onto the Elan DP02 as the entry-level protos.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

An entry point to prototype? That's laughable. They're nearly twice the price of Group CN(or more, depending on the specific CN car). That's not an entry point.

Group CN is an entry point. The Elan DP02 is an entry point. LMP3 is not an entry point.

And no, I don't want LMP2 times out of them. They don't need to run LMP2 times. They just need to be noticeably, consistently quicker than the DP02s - enough to justify the increased price tag. Like I said already, drop 100kg and add 50 horsepower and that'd probably do the trick.

They should not be slow enough for the Elan DP02 to qualify 4th overall.

The DP02 is a quick car, but not very modern. The P3 is a modern proto and in that vein is a better stepping stone. Some people like roofs on their head. I guess what I'm saying is that there is more to it than speed for the guys running the cars.

Remember a few years ago when Level 5 engineered some little proto, like a lites car, to run P2 times? That was a sweet engineering exercise but again, more to it than speed. Safety is a huge concern for lots of folks.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I's not even entry level in IMSA, though - they're hanging onto the Elan DP02 as the entry-level protos.

Until the end of the year, with car counts likely decreasing of the DP02 through the year.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by joeb

The DP02 is a quick car, but not very modern. The P3 is a modern proto and in that vein is a better stepping stone.

These are the very reasons why I'm such an annoyingly vocal proponent of the adoption of Group CN for Prototype Challenge. Most CN cars are thoroughly modern prototypes built to modern safety standards with carbon tubs that make for great stepping stones into bigger things. But there's actually quite a jump between a CN car and an LMP2 car - a jump which LMP3 could fill perfectly with just those small tweaks to it's performance that I've already mentioned.

Some people like roofs on their head.

It's true, some people do. But it's not like there weren't other options if speed wasn't part of the equation; There's a closed-top CN car already(Ligier JS55 - look it up if you want to develop a new appreciation for the aesthetics of the old Daytona Prototypes), and Oreca had a closed-top CN concept a few years back that I'm sure they'd be ecstatic to revisit in exchange for an exclusive contract.

I guess what I'm saying is that there is more to it than speed for the guys running the cars.

For now, maybe. But once the expenses start piling up, they're going to ask that question. I've always been concerned about the long-term viability of LMP3 running in a series like Challenge/Lites, and that was while I assumed there was a decent performance gap between them and the DP02. Needless to say, my concerns about the long-term matters have grown quite a bit.

Remember a few years ago when Level 5 engineered some little proto, like a lites car, to run P2 times? That was a sweet engineering exercise but again, more to it than speed. Safety is a huge concern for lots of folks.

The West WX-10ST. They took the WX-10, heavily revised the aero, and fitted a 600cc turbo that was estimated to possibly have up to 75 horsepower more than the 1-liter NA engines the rest of the frontrunners had. It was considered a coin toss whether or not the engine would even survive the race. The car may have been the impetus to finally start working on the revamp to the SCCA's sportsracer classes.


It's taken almost ten years for West to implement the lessons from that exercise into West's main range at an affordable price in their new LMP4. Unfortunately, they're all but extinct from the American market now and exist primarily as Australia's equivalent to the Elan DP02.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Until the end of the year, with car counts likely decreasing of the DP02 through the year.

You've got a lot more faith than I do that people running a feeder championship will be willing to pay out more than double the price for a car that's barely any quicker.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

An entry point to prototype? That's laughable. They're nearly twice the price of Group CN(or more, depending on the specific CN car). That's not an entry point.

Group CN is an entry point. The Elan DP02 is an entry point. LMP3 is not an entry point.

And no, I don't want LMP2 times out of them. They don't need to run LMP2 times. They just need to be noticeably, consistently quicker than the DP02s - enough to justify the increased price tag. Like I said already, drop 100kg and add 50 horsepower and that'd probably do the trick.

They should not be slow enough for the Elan DP02 to qualify 4th overall.

A CN with a V8 could be very competitive too
Ryan Eversley on board in the Wolf GB08 MJ-V8 in the last 25 hours of Thunderhill overcoming to the Ginetta G57 (Chevy V8) shows how fast a CN can be!!!
https://www.facebook.com/jfcracing/v...type=2&theater

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

A CN with a V8 could be very competitive too
Ryan Eversley on board in the Wolf GB08 MJ-V8 in the last 25 hours of Thunderhill overcoming to the Ginetta G57 (Chevy V8) shows how fast a CN can be!!!
https://www.facebook.com/jfcracing/v...type=2&theater

Strictly speaking, that's NOT a CN car. Though derived from a CN chassis and aero, Group CN rules require two seater cockpits, and an engine not bigger than 3 liters or more than 6 cylinders. Most CN cars running to FIA specs use the Honda K20, for the record.

But CN cars do indeed make an excellent base for some awesome machinery in unlimited classes, particularly on hillclimbs(which CN was originally created for - it branched out into circuit racing later):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPieNL9K7cw

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Strictly speaking, that's NOT a CN car. Though derived from a CN chassis and aero, Group CN rules require two seater cockpits, and an engine not bigger than 3 liters or more than 6 cylinders. Most CN cars running to FIA specs use the Honda K20, for the record.

But CN cars do indeed make an excellent base for some awesome machinery in unlimited classes, particularly on hillclimbs(which CN was originally created for - it branched out into circuit racing later):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPieNL9K7cw

The engine is a V8 2.8, less than 3 liters

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

You've got a lot more faith than I do that people running a feeder championship will be willing to pay out more than double the price for a car that's barely any quicker.

Faith? No. Not faith.

[Kartracer88f]

I actually coach one of the LMP3 drivers in lites. The class is likely to be successful, but will have to go with longer races once the Elans are phased out. The ability to run the car for a distance is part of the reason drivers are ok with the price increase from the Elan. Plus the car can be run in other series easily

However, most of the customers are not from the Elan, they're coming from cars that are more expensive like the Ferrari or Lambo series.

[TzeiTzei]

I thought they were just as fast as they were expected to be.

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by Kartracer88f

I actually coach one of the LMP3 drivers in lites. The class is likely to be successful, but will have to go with longer races once the Elans are phased out. The ability to run the car for a distance is part of the reason drivers are ok with the price increase from the Elan. Plus the car can be run in other series easily

However, most of the customers are not from the Elan, they're coming from cars that are more expensive like the Ferrari or Lambo series.

Thanks for the info.