Audi LMP1 Discussion

[JAG]

Watching those 908 nose cams the R18's were twitching all over the place, it's not something I usually notice.

[sssssssss]

it did seem difficult in traffic, not sure how much of that can be about the car itself and how much, about the drivers. in any case, not the result they hoped for, i'm sure. they weren't even the slightly faster car, as they thought they were, but rather, the quite significantly slower, if we look at the fastest lap of the peugeot (although the entire race pace was comparable).

[CTD]

Audi had major issues with grip in the rear, especially with cold or used tires!
It could seem that Audi has a problem with consistency over a whole stint (based on what i saw at the race, so could be wrong)

[chernaudi]

That race was a total cluster....!

Shades of Silverstone last year, where they were fast in practice, qualified up front, and come the race, hardly managed anything.

They'd better get their act together before Le Mans, or they need to find Dave Maraj and the former Champion guys to run the show from here on out.

Only positives from Spa are that the R18 is at least "competitive" and that the Pug guys were probably sandbagging all weekend. And the 908 isn't exactly bullet proof, either, as the #9 had a suspension collapse not related to any accident it had. And with Pag running those 2:03's late probably showed Peugeot's cards, and Audi know what to aim for now.

As to the grip issues, could it be that the R18 is too front heavy to get the front tires to work better than the rears?

[sssssssss]

i think that just as always, audi have a tendency to underestimate peugeot's pace this year too, having built a new car.
concerning the r18 being too front heavy, i suppose that shouldn't be an issue since they've made the car much lighter than 900 kg in order to put that ballast where it's needed.

[chernaudi]

To add, I wonder how much effort Audi will put in to the R18 to improve it. They have 2-3 more test to improve the car. And it seems that both the R18 and the 908 by being new still have the new car blues. Both cars seem to have issues with rapid repair of minor damage (Pug's bodywork issues at Sebring and Audi having similar issues today), and then the was the #9's suspension collapse, which according to the team had little if anything to do with any of Lamy's offs.

Both teams have much to look at before Le Mans--both have to look at some driver discipline issues, both have to make their cars more consistant (even though the Pug's struggles were tamed to the extent that they were better in the race when they needed to be), and both need to look at maintainance issues as far as not the major stuff, which they hammered on, but the little things, like bodywork damage.

And I just read that one of the R18s did run a 27 lap stint during the race. Was that comparable to the 908s, or a lap more?

[Holt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And I just read that one of the R18s did run a 27 lap stint during the race. Was that comparable to the 908s, or a lap more?

It was about a lap more then the Peugeot, but part of that stint was also run during the safety car. Maybe Peugeot was playing it a little bit safer. Towards the end of the day both cars were running about 24 lap stints, but I'm sure neither showed their true hand

[ger80]

Any comment about the conversations between Doc Ullrich and Mr. Juettner in the Audi garage? Think we have seen them more relaxed before...

[chernaudi]

As I said, this seemed to be like Silverstone last year where Audi seemed to have the upper hand until the race.

Either Peugeot was sandbagging, or Audi missed the setup/the track came to Peugeot.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As I said, this seemed to be like Silverstone last year where Audi seemed to have the upper hand until the race.

Either Peugeot was sandbagging, or Audi missed the setup/the track came to Peugeot.

Or Peugeot has a better car. There's always that.

[chernaudi]

Well, why was Peugeot slower than Audi in every session except qualifying, where the Pugs only ran a couple of laps between them?

And Montagny and Davidson reported the same issues in practice that the R18s seemed to have in the race--a lack of grip.

I feel that both cars being new and having so few races between them that they're still learning about the cars. With the cars being so lightweight and having so much intrinsic grip, the feedback that they can provide drivers with must be staggering. Of course, with that come sensitivity to setup/weather changes and the impacts that can have on drivers' perceptions of handling and grip.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was one minor change on the part of either Audi or Peugeot that was the game changer, considering the equvilancy between laptimes, Pagenauld's laps not withstanding, as they were done with a PO'd driver, possibly with soft tires as it was late and Peugeot had nothing to lose on such a gamble.

I'd have to rate the cars as pretty equal right now, but it's gonna depend more than ever on the teams nailing the hot setup and keeping up with the track that'll be the decider here. And there are still more test, which is why Audi and Peugeot ran at Spa--not just for ILMC points, but to find things that can be improved on.

In that area, the big area that Audi needs to improve is getting the rear deck of the cars--the fin and it's intregration into the wing mount pylon might be the issue there.

In the end, it was really pit road gaffes and contact that cost Audi big time, not speed.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Well, why was Peugeot slower than Audi in every session except qualifying, where the Pugs only ran a couple of laps between them?

And Montagny and Davidson reported the same issues in practice that the R18s seemed to have in the race--a lack of grip.

I feel that both cars being new and having so few races between them that they're still learning about the cars. With the cars being so lightweight and having so much intrinsic grip, the feedback that they can provide drivers with must be staggering. Of course, with that come sensitivity to setup/weather changes and the impacts that can have on drivers' perceptions of handling and grip.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was one minor change on the part of either Audi or Peugeot that was the game changer, considering the equvilancy between laptimes, Pagenauld's laps not withstanding, as they were done with a PO'd driver, possibly with soft tires as it was late and Peugeot had nothing to lose on such a gamble.

I'd have to rate the cars as pretty equal right now, but it's gonna depend more than ever on the teams nailing the hot setup and keeping up with the track that'll be the decider here. And there are still more test, which is why Audi and Peugeot ran at Spa--not just for ILMC points, but to find things that can be improved on.

In that area, the big area that Audi needs to improve is getting the rear deck of the cars--the fin and it's intregration into the wing mount pylon might be the issue there.

In the end, it was really pit road gaffes and contact that cost Audi big time, not speed.

Better doesn't necessarily faster. Better means you end up in the winner's circle. Peugeot had the better car today. Period, no excuses, much less made up ones (for instance the one about the fin on the Audi--pure fantasy).

[RJC_pt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

With the cars being so lightweight and having so much intrinsic grip,

Were is the lightweight? they weight all the same... 908 and r18... and 900+kg is not that lightweight...

[templer]

Originally Posted by RJC_pt

Were is the lightweight? they weight all the same... 908 and r18... and 900+kg is not that lightweight...

Both cars have to reach the required minimum weight but you can expect that the Peugeot and the Audi perhaps even more weight less than 900 kg and they are ballasted up to the minimum weight. The ballast can be intregated into the car in such a manner that you can lower the center of gravity and/or change the weight distribution of the car. You have so a toy to improve the car's performance at different tracks.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

In http://pitlane-vision.com/fils-dactu...ression-r.html Dumas gives some comments on the R18 comparing it to the R15. He repeats what we have heard before (more agile, better grip, better aero, less power, bad visibility to the right). However, he also remarks that the car is less robust than the R15, which could be an issue in case of contact.

In hindsight, the robustness of the R18 did cause Audi problems in the race.

The race report of Audi Sport explains the minor issues that they struggled with: too little downforce, excessive pick-up on front tyres, broken diffuser on #1, slow punctures, wrong tyre pressure, ...

In this interview, Benoit Tréluyer suggests that Peugeot was sandbagging during the practice sessions:

However, it seemed difficult to get the victory because we were not set up for Spa but for Le Mans. Peugeot contrary, given the disappointment of qualifying, bet on a different strategy and put on more downforce. They won a lot of time in the second sector and that reveals the fact that they had an advantage in downforce. I think they also hid their game at the beginning and afterwards they opened the turbo. But it seems very close to each other, they had mechanical problems, so I'd rather be where I am than have a car that breaks in 24 hours.

[Pandamasque]

Did anyone notice the strange spray/steam from the front of the #1, then it immediately pitted, but then went out like nothing had happened. What was that? It was similar to what JMW had, but briefly.

[Acid09]

I don't think Treluyer is right in regards to the downforce, all the Audi drivers claim that Peugeot wasn't running their Le Mans spec aero which is false...

Are they already grasping for straws? Very weird, it was clearly their low-drag configuration.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I don't think Treluyer is right in regards to the downforce, all the Audi drivers claim that Peugeot wasn't running their Le Mans spec aero which is false...

I am sure that the Audi pilots are not blind. Maybe you don't know this, but the angle of the rear wing can be changed...

A comparision of the best sector times during the race:
sector 1: #8 Peugeot 35.234 vs #2 Audi 35.299
sector 2: #9 Peugeot 55.927 vs #2 Audi 56.850
sector 3: #9 Peugeot 32.248 vs #2 Audi 32.316

So Peugeot made the difference in sector 2, which all about downforce. Remember that Danny Watts was able to put the Strakka HPD on pole because of an excellent sector 2.

[Acid09]

Well, the times alone don't proof that Peugeot was running higher downforce...Audi was struggling with grip so they would lose a lot in that section.

[gwyllion]

Allan McNish's Spa video diary

[templer]

From just a look at the car on TV or on pics we cannot say if Peugeot run with more downforce. You can still fit the Le Mans bodywork and change the rear wing angle, add some more strakes at the front diffusor , change the angle of the whole car, play with the ride heights and things like that.
Peugeot must be able to run more downforce also with their Le Mans package. If it rains at Le Mans they must add downforce.
So a low downforce package does not mean that you cannot change the downforce levels.

[MulsanneMike]

Hard to ascertain why the 908 is better than the R18. Could simply be a higher df low-drag kit (therefore better L/D) or more power (and torque). But we can't say which as we need more information.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by templer

So a low downforce package does not mean that you cannot change the downforce levels.

Yes, exactly. This seems to be missed by most. Audi tested at Sebring back in March in the high-df setup for their Le Mans "kit".

[knighty]

just found another R18 engine image on the net, looks like a more rearward view of the official audi one, dunno if anyone has seen it before???

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/32...r18+engine.jpg

.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by knighty

just found this R18 engine image link on the net, looks like a more rearward view of the official audi one, dunno if anyone has seen it before???

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/32...r18+engine.jpg

.

Yeah, it was part of the Audi release.