[Tech Issue] Pirelli-The Tyre Story..

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Wider rears would be great and spectacular at low speed. Low speed sideways slides FTW.

Not unless coupled with wider fronts ....

[Marbot]

Wider front and rear tyres would not slide if coupled with a high level of downforce. What you might actually end up with is less sliding than you started out with.

No tyre deal for Pirelli as yet. It's hard to think of any tyre manufacturer that would replace them given the current testing regulations. Unless they were going to have much less aggressive tyres than Pirelli are making.

[Teretonga]

these tyre failures seem to be causing a disproportionate amount of concern in F1 in 2013 compared with past tyre failures that were really spectacular in the past.

The ones McLaren (Lauda, Rosberg) experienced in the 80's at Adelaide.
Mansells big one at Adelaide...

The one that caused an Audi LMP1 to crash in testing in Germany killing a well known driver, and other similar accidents / failures.

Suddenly in 2013, under ridiculously artificial rules/policy/contracts we get a failure and on track material 'debris' is no longer an acceptable reason...... just what is going on here or do we have teams playing political games in order to embarrass the FIA into abandoning their programme to spice up F1 and the tyre company they are working with....?
I understand the safety concerns but are they being 'real' about them or is there some posturing going on... I suspect maybe the latter...

[GTRMagic]

Mr Brundle suggested on the F1 qually broadcast that Michelin is apparently returning to F1 in 2014

Ciao Pirelli??

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Brundle suggested on the F1 qually broadcast that Michelin is apparently returning to F1 in 2014

Ciao Pirelli??

Holly crap!

[andy666]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Brundle suggested on the F1 qually broadcast that Michelin is apparently returning to F1 in 2014

Ciao Pirelli??

From the BBC F1 site , Michelin would want a chance to showcase its high levels of technology, including tread-free 'slick' tyres that can be used in wet weather.
Sounds interesting ! Anyone have any info on these ? I have done a quick search but can't seem to find any info .

[92scotland]

Originally Posted by andy666

From the BBC F1 site , Michelin would want a chance to showcase its high levels of technology, including tread-free 'slick' tyres that can be used in wet weather.
Sounds interesting ! Anyone have any info on these ? I have done a quick search but can't seem to find any info .

If I remember correctly, Michelin used them in this years Le Mans. They appeared to work really well. The start was greasy and Toyota used them whereas Audi didn't, so within 10 mins of the start Toyota was challenging for the lead, even though they had a car a couple seconds off the ultimate pace!

Michelin has three slicks for the LMP1 cars: a ‘low temperature’ soft compound, a ‘high temperature’ soft compound and a ‘high temperature’ medium compound, along with a ‘slick intermediate’ (no tread pattern), a ‘wet’ tyre and a ‘full wet’ tyre, the pattern of which can be adjusted to match the conditions of the moment using a technique known as ‘re-cutting’.
Source: http://www.lemanslive.com/Tyres

Found another article (http://www.michelinalley.com/?p=9498) which gives more info on the tyres:

“We tested the new hybrid tyre at the end of 2011,” said a Michelin spokesperson. “Audi and Toyota then both ran it in testing during the spring. Audi also raced it at Spa and it turned out to be one of the cornerstones of the win of the N°3 car: Marc Gené used it for his second stint on a track that was still damp from earlier rain. It is effectively very efficient in drying conditions.”

So by the sounds of it as the track dries there is no need to change the tyre immediately as it is a slick, unlike a traditional intermediate which will deteriorate in drying conditions.

[andy666]

Originally Posted by 92scotland

If I remember correctly, Michelin used them in this years Le Mans. They appeared to work really well. The start was greasy and Toyota used them whereas Audi didn't, so within 10 mins of the start Toyota was challenging for the lead, even though they had a car a couple seconds off the ultimate pace!



Found another article (http://www.michelinalley.com/?p=9498) which gives more info on the tyres:



So by the sounds of it as the track dries there is no need to change the tyre immediately as it is a slick, unlike a traditional intermediate which will deteriorate in drying conditions.

Cheers 92scotland , would be interesting to see these brought into f1 .

[321Go]

Originally Posted by 92scotland

So by the sounds of it as the track dries there is no need to change the tyre immediately as it is a slick, unlike a traditional intermediate which will deteriorate in drying conditions.

One word - BORING!
Picking the perfect time to switch tyres is one of THE critical pit calls in F1, and brings the race to life in changing conditions. The slick inters might be ok in a 24 hour race, where you'd be able to stay out much longer after track conditions change, but in a 2 hour race, what's the point?? BORING!

They got rid of the need to pit for fuel (a mistake in my opinion), and how boring would it be if there was to be no pit stops for tyres either?? Or even back to one stop/no stop races??

The last couple of seasons have been very entertaining. Even though one driver (and team) have been taking the trophies at the end, the races have been very entertaining, either on TV, or at the tracks - unlike a time when another German driver and his team took all the trophies at the end of the season, when the races were just - plain - BORING!

Pirelli has been criticized a lot for simply doing what was asked of them by FOM. Now FOM are seeking to replace Pirelli with Michelin, because Pirelli did what they were told to do, which was to push the boundaries of tyre life, and to create three to four stop races.

http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07956

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by andy666

From the BBC F1 site , Michelin would want a chance to showcase its high levels of technology, including tread-free 'slick' tyres that can be used in wet weather.
Sounds interesting ! Anyone have any info on these ? I have done a quick search but can't seem to find any info .

Story Here

As long as we dont get a repeat of Indy all those years ago...

A shame Bridgestone doesnt seem to be in the picture

[Teretonga]

This is a farcical nonsense. Pirelli has been said to have been subject to discontent as a tyre producer in the BBC article because the teams aren't happy but in reality its the FIA requirements for tyre specification that are the problem....

Michelin says its interested but only if there is a change in the regulations......

If they change the regulations then appoint Michelin that's nothing but FIA rubbish and inconsistency.
If the tyres are not satisfactory stop meddling with the regulations and let Pirelli produce a proper tyre....

[GTRMagic]

You do know Michelin is a French company right?

[jsTrecu]

The Hybrid Michelin tyres at LM were great, I think everybody was happy with them. And running them on a F1 car would be good PR for Michelin.
But I think Pirelli will probably stay.

[wolfhound]

My impression was that Bernie/FOM wanted Pirelli but the FIA were more favourable to Michelin. It was this that appeared to be the sticking point over tyres. I suspect that Paul Hembrey's recent words on the subject reflect the fact that there is something going on with tyre and that there is at least one other interested manufacturer.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109434

[andy666]

[QUOTE=andy666;3293595]Cheers 92scotland , would be interesting to see these brought into f1 .[/.

Would this type of hybrid wet/slick tyre take away the advantage drivers have that are good in mixed conditions ?

[bjohnsonsmith]

What about the size of the rims? I thought one of the problems with Michelin was that they only make tyres for 18'' rims as in LMP.

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by andy666

Would this type of hybrid wet/slick tyre take away the advantage drivers have that are good in mixed conditions ?

Yes and no, easier to drive with them on a damp track than with slicks of course, but they have a limit too and if it keeps raining they won't work properly and you'll have to fit some full wets.
They'll just make it easier for the teams when it starts raining to decide what to do, because they give you more time to react than a slick.

This weekend in qualifying at Spa they would have worked really well in Q3 IMO.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What about the size of the rims? I thought one of the problems with Michelin was that they only make tyres for 18'' rims as in LMP.

That's what is being reported. It could be too late for the teams to agree about that, tho.
Maybe keeping 13" for 2014 and changing to 18" in 2015 could be a solution if Michelin is willing to do so.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

Yes and no, easier to drive with them on a damp track than with slicks of course, but they have a limit too and if it keeps raining they won't work properly and you'll have to fit some full wets.
They'll just make it easier for the teams when it starts raining to decide what to do, because they give you more time to react than a slick.

This weekend in qualifying at Spa they would have worked really well in Q3 IMO.




That's what is being reported. It could be too late for the teams to agree about that, tho.
Maybe keeping 13" for 2014 and changing to 18" in 2015 could be a solution if Michelin is willing to do so.

BBC are reporting they are willing to stick with 13" for two years provided they get a commitment to go to 18" after that.

In my opinion either:
A. it's a smoke screen to get a better deal from Pirelli
or
B. Pirelli are being completely stitched up

There is a real risk that having done what they are asked (Silverstone issues aside) they get the blame for a situation that is not of their making and are deprived of a chance to repair their reputation by being unceremoniously slung out to be replaced by Michelin who are then allowed to do their own thing without the restrictions Pirelli have been working under.

[jsTrecu]

Agree, it's not fair for Pirelli if they are kicked out like that...
But Hembery seemed a bit outraged when asked about Michelin, maybe he fears something is coming.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

Maybe keeping 13" for 2014 and changing to 18" in 2015 could be a solution if Michelin is willing to do so.

I would have thought the cost of developing a tyre for 13'' rims for one season, would be fairly prohibitive. Michelin would never get their money back.

[jsTrecu]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I would have thought the cost of developing a tyre for 13'' rims for one season, would be fairly prohibitive. Michelin would never get their money back.

I said one year, but it could be two, or three. I have no idea to be honest.
The point I was trying to make is if everyone is given some time to adapt there could be an agreement. Michelin won't walk away from the negotiation if the FIA promises them 18" wheels in two years or so.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

I said one year, but it could be two, or three. I have no idea to be honest.
The point I was trying to make is if everyone is given some time to adapt there could be an agreement. Michelin won't walk away from the negotiation if the FIA promises them 18" wheels in two years or so.

For the teams, switching from 13'' to 18'' will be a headache in itself, they will have to re design the suspension for a start, not to mention other aspects of the car, like aero. It going to put costs up, which is something the FIA has been trying to keep down.

[jsTrecu]

Yeah it's not just the wheels, suspension, aero and brake systems must be redesigned too. It's very complicated and expensive, but you can't stay on 13" forever ?
For some reason the F1 wants to be seen as road relevant, and those tiny wheels don't fit with the new trends followed by car manufacturers.


The FIA must be delaying the deal with Pirelli for a reason, don't know if it has to do with Michelin but it's strange.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by jsTrecu

Yeah it's not just the wheels, suspension, aero and brake systems must be redesigned too. It's very complicated and expensive, but you can't stay on 13" forever ?
For some reason the F1 wants to be seen as road relevant, and those tiny wheels don't fit with the new trends followed by car manufacturers.


The FIA must be delaying the deal with Pirelli for a reason, don't know if it has to do with Michelin but it's strange.

F1's never been road relevant.

[andy666]

F1 cars on 18" wheels and low profile tyres would look sexy !