The US GP farce

[Kicking-back]

Indeed. Aggregate race times have been scrapped.

[thebear]

Originally posted by tangoed sparky
As a marshal I agree they did seem to take along time to get to the incidents. I think that in alot of US racing they do not go track side from the marshals posts it is usualy done by a fast response car/pick up. Maybe they were scared or busy eating donuts. I for one noticed that there was a marshal sat on the track wall at one corner and this is a nono in the uk. Also when marshaling at a GP you are required to wear a tabard with an indiviual FIA number on it so that they can keep an eye on you. I did not see any of the US marshals wearing a tabard. Maybe they do not have to?

:confused: The marshals are issued Dark Blue (not fire retadant) coveralls and numbered tabards.

[Purist]

Ok, first the Alonso incident. A pace car should have been called out. Ther Renault was at the end of the front straight pretty well in line with the racing line, on which cars would be approaching at around 200mph. Also, There were at least two visible pieces of debris thrown up when Fernando's tire blew.

Absolutely should have been a red flag for Ralf. The car, and all the pieces of it, were scattered about on the first section of the front straightaway. Not to mention that it would have helped the medical team if the track had been cleared of cars. They could have parked the field on the backstraight of either the road course or the oval.

If the Williams passed teck inspection, I could care less about some trivial little sticker. I should hpe that the scrutineers would document which cars did or did not pass inspection, and not just hand out little pieces of adhesive as the only evidence of said inspection.

[tangoed sparky]

Originally posted by Skam85
I agree that the race should have been red flagged, but it is unfair to say that as the race in Silverstone 1999 was already red-flagged before Michael's crash due to cars stranded on the grid. Michael crashed as he thought he was racing, but the race had already been stopped. Sorry mate, but check your records before saying that.

Doh Sorry for that chaps I was not thinking straight. A combination of too many beers and being annoyed at the race. This is something that I should have already know as I was on the inside of Stow at the top of Vale when MS went off and it was quite a scary thing to see! (must make a mental note to myself not to go on Ten Tennths when pi**ed up and pi**ed off) Sorry again for that daft statment.

[thebear]

:confused: This is the "official FIA response" to various critcisms:

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=30515

[F1Pete]

What would have happened if Ralf's car burst into flames???????? That is what I was thinking about the whole time.

[65bc]

someone is going to die before the fia realizes they have their head up their asses

[65bc]

and its sad, CHAMP car have a safety crew at at least 75% of the corners fo rthe entire race weekend and all of them are are doctors, i was at a formula renault test with only 4 cars on the track at portland once and we had a larger safety crew,

[Gt_R]

Someone died and that's why FIA had constantly placed safety as a top priority. To say FIA gives no damn to safety is completely wrong.

If ever someone died in F1, you couldn't blame FIA for not having tried hard enough to avoid it. The stick FIA gets in getting out of hand.

[65bc]

then why do you have saftey workers that take a minute to get to the car but still cant touch the driver until 3 minutes later when a doctor finally gets to the scene, thats not right, is it and if it isnt then something should be done

[Gt_R]

Cars have to pass a stringent crash test. FIA had set the standards..but it is NOT FIA who made the teams try to attain the barest minimum in safety. It's the teams who in their desire for performance bring the car's safety down to the barest minimal.

And FIA set safety-related rules, yet when people get knocked for breaking it, FIA gets the blame for having stupid rules that spoil the show.

FIA is constantly working with some top drivers in improving safety. Teams on the otherhand are more interested in issues of self interest than safety.

FIA insists on safe tracks, tracks which ended up having few fast corners and lots of run offs, and people (though understandably in this case) complain it spoilt the spectator experience and creating pathetic tracks.

Then we have a huge crash...FIA gets blamed for everything...

Irregardless of what FIA had done or not do, they get the kick in the arsse anyway

[Gt_R]

I suggest FIA hire all the people who make the job sounds so simple.

Yes, we are all unsatisfied with the standards of the response (me wasn't pleased it took so long), but you'd be wrong if you think FIA doesn't want it done fast and right. The procedures are there to be followed, and as such, it isnt surprising if a situation can sometimes catch a flaw in the procedures.

FIA is satisfied in the overall response of the incident and gave an account for it. Behind closed door, they would no doubt have reviewed it and look for improvements. And that is something we should entrust FIA with.

There is room to be improved, i'm sure everyone is aware, but the whole stacking of blame on the FIA is nothing constructive. And i'm not even an FIA fan.

[65bc]

the fact that they are satisfied with the response is what worrys me, have a ambulance at every third corner or anywhere where there is a greater danger of injury, with all saftey workers trained in how to get remove the driver with or without the seat. the champ car series medical team of between 10 and 20 guys are up every moprning when the mechanics are praticing all posible scenarios. from the basics of removing the drivers helmet to removing the driver straight to a back board and to the the medical trailer. with f1 cars so much beeter than any other race series, the safety regulations and procedures should match or exceed those of the series.

[garcon]

F1 Pete - I suspect if the car had burst into flames the race would have been red flagged instantly and rescue crews would have been able to attend quicker. I also suspect that any other car nearby might've stopped to try and drag Ralf clear. You're dealing in hypotheticals.

65bc, as I think elsewhere days ago, to suggest that the FIA does not treat safety seriously is to disregard all the progress made in the last 20 years and all the efforts of people like Sir Jackie Stewart and Professor Sid Watkins. Safety is always the number one priority, but we have to accept that motor racing is inherently dangerous and accidents and injuries will happen - that's why it's so vital to erradicate all unnecessary risk and ensure the very best standards of medical care. It's these two areas where incredible progress has been made over the years.

[1200Datto27]

65bc,

I think that you will find that the F1 energency crews are as well or higher trained as the CART/ Champ Cars/OWRS/IRL crews, and do that sort of practice each day as well.

[Kicking-back]

Indeed.

There are always doctors stationed around the track at Grands Prix also.

[Purist]

GTR, the teams are simply doing what they are in the sport to do in the first place. They are doing their utmost to be competitive. It has always been the case that when they are given relatively free reign, automakers are notoriously indifferent to safety concerns. The only major, widespread change in cars before the NTSB and NHTSA stepped in was the changeover from plate glass to celuloid reinforced windows. If the FIA wants safer cars, they will have to raise the minimum standard.

Tracks, well, I'll try to keep this within reason. I know they're trying to make things better, but the changes aren't really helping. They've destroyed one of the best corners at Imola, and now passing on that course is virtually impossible. I've definitely seen the dark side of chicanes. The 1978 and 2000 Italian Grands Prix saw ftalities occurs as a result of incidents at two of the chicanes. Also, It's been practically impossible to get through the first lap at Monza without someine receiving damage and/or being spun out. It was not a good idea to move start/finish at Spa to before La Source. I'm all for making drivers exercise their self-control, but even the best can only do so much to skirt the laws of physics. Another major issue, somewhat in the same vein, is the matter of the design of new tracks. They tend to be affective at creating a likelyhood of a first lap/turn pile-up. Drivers know where they can break from, but if the guy in front slows up sooner, it can leave the mid and rear pack in a no win situation in those extremely ard braking zones. Then there is the matter that, like Imola, these new tracks, even with their apparent passing zones, don't appear to allow for much overtaking.

The next few points are more personal observations. It seems to me that the wide tracks, and wikde paved runoffs, are too inviting. With more room, drivers are more will to stick their neck out, and feel relatively secure about it. This meaning they may try ill-advised maneuvers, because they feel more confident that they can make it. In the olng run, I fear this is creating less skilled drivers than in past generations. In addition, I sometimes think they go overboard on how much runoff they give. It's a little rididculous to watch some of these races, and it looks like the track is in a desert with all of the gravel around it. I would say that Road America has done a wonderful juob of providing good barriers and ruoff, without isolating the track itself, though they could perhaps use some tires at turns 11 (the Kink) and 13 (under the bridge after Canada Corner). The last issue is of particular concern to me. If I am going to attend a live event, I will NEED to be quite close to see much of anything at all. I make very good use of the vision I have, but I am blind in my left eye, and have 20/350-400 in my right eye, with my glasses. Binoculars would help some, but not as much as simply being very close to the action.

[Gt_R]

Oh..btw, i think we're straying off..

What i'm trying to say is simply the thing that some people will just hold FIA to blame for everything that goes wrong, and that unjustly accuse FIA for ignoring safety issues, which i really can't see where it came from.

Regarding minimum standards of car safety...i for one support it if they increase the construction and safety standards of F1 again. Some designers have came out saying that F1 cars are still not safe enough.

But look at Mclaren...they took the frontal crash of the car to the barest minimum possible, in fact they managed to bring below it (hence failing the crash test a few times). Is it FIA's fault? Nahh.. it's just that teams have reached a stage where performance is more important than driver's safety...ask them why.

[Purist]

It's pretty simple. Sad but true, winning is this sport is what matters above all else. You have to deliver results, period.

I'm not going to blame the FIa for every little thing. I do, howver, blame them to some extent for perhaps not doing neough to show that they have learned lessons of the past. I would say the the chicane thing would probalby be an example of this. They really do seem to couase more problems than they solve. It also occurs to me that at a corner like Tamburello, if you have a wall at all close to the track on the outside, it is far easier to hit it at a steeper angle with the chicane setup than if the wall just close up on the outside of that original corner.

[freud]

Originally posted by tangoed sparky
I seems that you have to be german and driving a red car to get a race stop. When michael broke his leg at silverstone that was a race stop even though he was off the track at the back of the gravel trap. This is the second time that they have carried on running with a driver ill in his car on the circuit. That should have been a red flag IMO.
Also why I am complaining why does michel always get away with almost breaking the rules?

Interesting, I never thought about it. But now I can understand your point. Imho, that red flag decision at silverstone was wrong. Michael was stuck inside his car but he wasnt still and clearly tried to jump out of the car immediately after the accident. It wasnt as grave a situation as with Ralf at USGP.

[Kicking-back]

For the millionth time - the Silverstone race was red flagged BEFORE Schumacher crashed.

[BootsOntheSide]

The red flag was thrown at Sivlerstone 99 before Michael went off - it was in response to a car (a Stewart?) beign stuck on the grid. So I'm afraid you're wrong to make a comparison.

I think all the safety crecautionsa r ein place, but too many things are being rushed to avoid disruption to TV schedules. In days gone by races would eb stopped in simialr situations, and I think, ahd the race been stopped after the lap 1 crash and teh track throughly cleaned, enither Alonso nor Ralf would've crashed (and, as an aside, Michael wouldn't've been gifted the race)

[Kicking-back]

I don't think the race would've been redflagged for the lap one crash - look at Hockenheim 1994.

But there is an argument for it after Ralf's crash.

However, there wasn't a red flag, and we move on.

[Utopian]

Disgraceful to not red flag the race. Is this really due to not wanting to upset TV stations by stopping the race? Safety is paramount.

In addition, what is the point in wasting so many laps of the race under yellows?

Ridiculous decision.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"For the millionth time - the Silverstone race was red flagged BEFORE Schumacher crashed."

forget it..some love to live in the world of conspiracy...and facts are not allowed to get in the way

I don't really think that the race wasn't stop because of pleasing TV stations. F1 had shown red flags quite a few times in recent years, and when Indy can actually screw up the time with a delay of hours, i don't think a 10min pause would do much harm.

Moreover, F1 usually completes a race in less time than they are allocated, hence a hiccup like halting Ralf won't hurt TV times too much.

The race control just made a decision to deem it fit to keep the race running at that time. On hindsight, whether or not it's a wise move, is another matter.