Is History repeating itself?

[herowassenna]

I can't see Alonso or Ferrari winning the championships this year and it got me thinking.

In 1996, Schumi joined an under-performing Ferrari squad and set to work. That year he salvaged 3 wins , but had many set back throughout the year. I can imagine that in private, Schumi was ultra demanding and with Todt's captaincy, they recruited staff at all levels.
Brawn and Byrne were brought in, technical and engineering were added to and slowly they over came traditional Ferrari foibles and turned Ferrari into a super team.
Press reports at the time spoke of annual expenditure in the region of $250,000,000 to win the championship, which took 3 years to win the WCC and four to win the WDC.
Once the behemoth began rolling, Ferrari steam rollered the opposition for the next 5 season with practically no let up leading to domination the likes of which is unlikely to ever be seen again.
IMO, 2005 and 2006 were the initial signs that Schumi was no longer the force he had once been, thus Kimi was recruited into the team.
Whatever my personal views on the "Iceman", it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say he was not a leader of the team. Journalists reported that and evidence would support that.
Massa is not an antagonistic driver, nor was Kimi and maybe Ferrari felt that the team was directionless once Schumi, Todt and Brawn had left.
2007 brought 2 championships, 2008 the constructors and but for operational errors would have secured the drivers too. Surely this was the residue effect of the awesome team that had been in place. 2009 was effectively Ferrari without a rudder... maybe returning to their old Italian ways.

Alonso this year has made mistakes, has suffered awful luck at times and has forcibly upped Ferrari's game with statements about slow upgrades, whereas Mclaren and Red Bull have consistently stayed ahead of the game or progressed faster.
Could this be the reason why he was hired, so as to give the team direction and to push them in whatever manner is needed to return to performing as they did barely 5 years ago. Is Pat Fry's appointment significant as maybe he has worked with Alonso before and knows the Mclaren system inside out?
I wonder, is Alonso reluctantly taking the hit this year, so as Ferrari are completely on the ball next year?

[Super Hans]

Ferrari may move closer to the front in 2011 but they'll not be able to dominate as they once did. The game has changed. They can't test like they used to.

[Born Racer]

Are you asking if this is like 1996 and Ferrari are going to go through a process of rebuilding? Answer- they will need to if they will get back to any dominance, but I doubt it will be like before without their testing advantage.

Or are you also asking if Ferrari are going back to the error-strewn days?

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Are you asking if this is like 1996 and Ferrari are going to go through a process of rebuilding? Answer- they will need to if they will get back to any dominance, but I doubt it will be like before without their testing advantage.

Or are you also asking if Ferrari are going back to the error-strewn days?

I don't think any team will ever dominate to the extent Ferrari did for 2000 to 2004. I agree, all the rule changes in recent seasons have nullified their particular advantage.
As to the error strewn days, operationally in 2008 and 2009 they have made significant errors regarding qualifying, or wet weather tyres on a dry circuit, or pit stop mistakes etc. I'm wondering if part of Montezemolo's reasoning was he could recognise they were slipping back and they needed a catalyst to force the team into upping their game on all levels. ie Alonso

Mclaren proved in 2009, that they could develop a dog of a car into a winner. I acknowledge that Hamilton had to drive the damn thing, but when that car was slow, even his ability couldn't overcome it.
Does Ferrari, with their Italian culture need a leader to direct the team?

[NeilB]

When Bryne, Brawn, Todt and all left the team, it was only natural that the Italians would want to get their hands back on the team to carry on the success. Unfortunately though, Ferrari seem to be reverting to it's old stance of organised chaos yet again.

Is it just me or since Todt's departure from the team, has Luca di Montezemolo become more vocal in the efforts of the F1 team? Perhaps Domenicali needs to be tougher like Todt was, by leaving him to just get on with the job at hand and get to winning ways.

Hiring Fernando was a step in the right direction, but if the team isn't pulling in the right direction then the driver can only do so much.

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by NeilB

Is it just me or since Todt's departure from the team, has Luca di Montezemolo become more vocal in the efforts of the F1 team? Perhaps Domenicali needs to be tougher like Todt was, by leaving him to just get on with the job at hand and get to winning ways.

After recent events I found myself thinking that Domenicali is not a strong enough manager to deal with Alonso. At Silverstone it would appear he was unable to persuade Alonso to cede the position back to Kubica and that ended up costing both Ferrari and Alonso dearly.

[ljakse]

I believe it's uncomparable.
In those years, there were no restricitions for spending money. Not just for testing - there were no restrictions on engines, gearboxes...anything...
At that time, Ferrari in a way 'bought' it's dominance. They were testing all the time (only team with their own test track), they lured in all the best people involved in F1 at the time, except Newey. They had as much money as they could spend, and I'm sure that $250 mil was at least doubled.
Nowdays, it's completely different game, and obscene amount of money can not help you that much.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Ted bennett

After recent events I found myself thinking that Domenicali is not a strong enough manager to deal with Alonso. At Silverstone it would appear he was unable to persuade Alonso to cede the position back to Kubica and that ended up costing both Ferrari and Alonso dearly.

It is in these situations that the calm authority that Brawn had on the pit wall paid off. TGF would have accepted the instruction immediately from him but there have been too many errors for Alonso to accept such an instruction. The other variable is the temperament of the two drivers TGF was logical and analytical, Alonso is mercurial and emotional.

The team has changed, the rules have changed and I tend to agree that we shall never see the Todt/TGF pattern repeated, Ferrari is just another top team and not the dominant force it was perceived to be. Life moves on and getting a Ferrari contract is not an automatic route to the WDC

[browney]

I think it is normal for a team to come up and go back down. You can't win all the time and dominate forever, regardless of if you are Ferrari in F1, Honda in MotoGP, The Australian cricket team or Roger Federer.

I don't think this is a sign of failure by anyone personally, or even a direct result of rule changes, I think it is just a normal part of sport. Everything has to go right for you to win at the top level and it doesn't stay that way forever.

[BootsOntheSide]

I don't think it's all down to money and the test track, I can't see anybody at Ferrari who is of the same calibre as the people they had in the late 1990s and beyond. Alonso is in the same league as Michael on track, but he doesn't show the same potential for leading a team forward and moulding it around him. His personality has much clearer negative streaks. Also, Massa is less of a clear-cut #2 than Eddie or Rubens, because he was already at the team and was almost a world champion himself.

[ensign14]

Add to the FIA under Todt being a bit less pro-Scuderia than the FIA under Mosley...McLaren in 2001 went back to 1998 power thanks to the FIA outlawing their beryllium parts...

[chillibowl]

Alonso may or may not be the guy to lead them forward but at some point the pressure to put it all together must fall on Domenicali's shoulders and not the drivers.

Originally Posted by herowassenna

As to the error strewn days, operationally in 2008 and 2009 they have made significant errors regarding qualifying, or wet weather tyres on a dry circuit, or pit stop mistakes etc.

agreed. strategically they have been awful. operationally they have been awful. reliability wise they have been awful. and design wise they have been worse than awful...they have been slow. all this points to organization and preparation so the lack of testing only serves to magnify this as now their mistakes happen during a race weekend and not behind the veil of a a private test track.

in his defense i think Alonso is putting that Ferrari in a place it doesn't belong and any bad attitude/frustration he has can as easily be attributed to the team letting him down as opposed to some character flaw we may think he has.

[RotorFan]

Initially I thought the point being made in this thread was that Schumacher is going to turn around Mercedes to be as successful, like the Ferrari story, then I read this rubbish about Schumacher not able to race in 2005/2006 as he once did. I guess I should read more than the thread tooltip

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by ensign14

McLaren in 2001 went back to 1998 power thanks to the FIA outlawing their beryllium parts...

So did every engine manufacturer. Berylium was banned from the sport because of it's cost. It wasn't only Mclaren that was using it.
As an aside, Newey was still designing the Mclaren till 2005, Ferraris team was just better.

[Massa_number1]

a close friend of mine who worked in the Mclaren factory till 2006 said that during that Newey had broken his finger playing badminton with ron dennis and thus couldnt draw the cars properly resulting in a downturn of fortune for the silver arrows

[ptclaus98]

I don't think their problems just showed up last year. This has been coming since late 2006. When Schumacher announced he was leaving, I think Ross checked out, and as a result I think the technical staff started to lose the discipline they had. This wasn't as evident in 2007 and 2008 because the car was an evolution of the 248-F1. When they had to make revolutionary changes in 2009, they were not only missing Brawn's managerial skills, but Todt and Schumi's politicking in the team. Kimi's side wasn't aggressive in politicking and leading the team, so they gave him the scraps. Meanwhile, the team rallied around and focused their resources around Massa. Luca, I must say, quite rightly, didn't believe that even with the support of the team, Massa could deliver. So he went searching for someone that could.

Enter Alonso. Alonso is looking to make his mark and get the full support. He looked set to do that but it's come undone since the circus came back to Europe. Now he's toeing the party line on every issue. If Massa keeps improving, soon all that posturing will ring hollow and Alonso will resort to moaning. Alonso needs to start pummeling Massa before it gets to his head. JMO

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Massa_number1

a close friend of mine who worked in the Mclaren factory till 2006 said that during that Newey had broken his finger playing badminton with ron dennis and thus couldnt draw the cars properly resulting in a downturn of fortune for the silver arrows

Oh yeh, that would be it....pmsl

[ensign14]

Yes, playing racket & ball games with Ron Dennis can be brutal. Look what happened to Montoya.

[herowassenna]

Warning to Jens, if he wants game of badminton, be very afraid...

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by NeilB

When Bryne, Brawn, Todt and all left the team, it was only natural that the Italians would want to get their hands back on the team to carry on the success. Unfortunately though, Ferrari seem to be reverting to it's old stance of organised chaos yet again.

Is it just me or since Todt's departure from the team, has Luca di Montezemolo become more vocal in the efforts of the F1 team? Perhaps Domenicali needs to be tougher like Todt was, by leaving him to just get on with the job at hand and get to winning ways.

Hiring Fernando was a step in the right direction, but if the team isn't pulling in the right direction then the driver can only do so much.

It is about as close to the truth as we'll ever get.