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25 Mar 2013, 16:11 (Ref:3224506) | #26 | ||
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Other teams, namely McLaren and Williams, have allowed their two drivers to race - with a couple of exceptions(e.g. Patrese having to give Mansell the win in France in 1992 as we he was leading the championship; Coulthard pulling over for Mika in Australia in 1998 - but that time it was perhaps a little more questionable). |
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25 Mar 2013, 16:15 (Ref:3224508) | #27 | |
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I wasn't really suggesting that should be the case, I was suggesting that FOM might want to consider pointing their cameras at something else.
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25 Mar 2013, 16:45 (Ref:3224524) | #28 | ||
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As far as I can remember the convention has always been, where the teams do allow racing, that they were allowed to race until after the last pit stop. After that the drivers were expected to bring the cars home for the points. That looked to be what Red Bull were doing. At a guess the Multi 21 instruction went out after Webber had held off Vetel when he came out the pits.
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25 Mar 2013, 17:20 (Ref:3224544) | #29 | ||
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Ian Botham ran Geoff Boycott out on his captain's orders. And sometimes teams give their opponents runs (and ruining the bowlers figures) to force a result. Sometimes you just have to do what is necessary for the good of the team when they pay your wages...
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25 Mar 2013, 17:36 (Ref:3224555) | #30 | |
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25 Mar 2013, 18:30 (Ref:3224575) | #31 | ||
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Vettel didn't break the rules, neither did Bed Bull or Mercedes. No-one did. No problem really with anything that happened yesterday in that regard.
Having said that: I know orders have been part of F1 since its inception, but I don't like them. Good on Vettel for showing Webber the way to drive fast. If only Rosberg had had the balls to do the same. |
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25 Mar 2013, 18:48 (Ref:3224582) | #32 | ||
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Is Team Orders...Racing? ...Yes it is!
A better question would be...Is driving 9 Tenths to Preserve Tyres & Save Fuel...Formula One Racing? |
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25 Mar 2013, 18:53 (Ref:3224586) | #33 | ||
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Analogies don't really work with F1 (or motorsport as a whole) and other sports.
It's a team sport and an invidivual sport at the same time. It is impossible to strike a perfect balance in the sport between the two. And that's part of the wonderful, disfunctional and fascinating world of motor racing. Team orders make sense to me. If a team wishes to let its cars race, like Audi always has done in the WEC or Le Mans, it's up to them, but surely the people that make these cars and spend all those hours have a right not to have that time wasted by one driver thinking he's above it all...and by the same token, they have the right to decide if that's acceptable for them. "Racing" implies a race to the line, but a "team" looks for the best possible result for its members. The bosses are in charge of that so I don't see how you can effectively ban team orders from the sport. |
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25 Mar 2013, 18:57 (Ref:3224590) | #34 | |||
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Right now, though, it's getting a little ridiculous. When Sutil had his race ruined by tires made of marshmellow at the Oz GP, I really wondered what Pirelli were trying to achieve. |
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25 Mar 2013, 19:05 (Ref:3224595) | #35 | ||
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As I recall it, the huge blow up over team orders back when Ferrari did it wasn't so much that they did it but that they weren't open about it.
I am sure there used to be a rule that communication to the car could not use code words. If Webber had not mentioned "multi 21" in the pre-podium room, would Red Bull have let everyone know what happened or would they have left it looking like a fairly fought great overtaking move? |
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25 Mar 2013, 19:41 (Ref:3224611) | #36 | ||
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The way I see it is Vettel is a three time world champion, Webber is the No 2 driver and he knows it. I think Vettel saw it as his right to win, that's just what he does, it's in his nature.
Might not have won him any more fans and given Newey and Horner a headache but what are they going to do? Sack him? I doubt it! And as for the other talking point, Hamilton and Rosberg, that just convinces me that Hamilton went to Mercedes as a number one driver. It'll be in his contract somewhere, secured with a non disclosure agreement or something. All the crocodile tears for Nico being ordered to stay behind was pure BS. Can you really imagine Hamilton accepting "equal status" with a teammate who has won just a single GP? The good news for F1 is that it will add millions of new viewers as we and the media have three weeks to argue about it before China. |
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25 Mar 2013, 19:44 (Ref:3224614) | #37 | ||
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WWF1....."Hulk Vettell" vs "The Aussie Battler Webber".
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25 Mar 2013, 20:05 (Ref:3224624) | #38 | ||
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I guess the only guy in F1 who's ****ed about that is one called Mark Webber.
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25 Mar 2013, 20:45 (Ref:3224635) | #39 | |||
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Now many will argue that this doesn't promote "pure" racing...and I would probably agree...but for years the organisers have been trying to keep F1 speeds down (partially for safety reasons, partly for cost reasons, allegedly) and the teams have been trying to do the exact opposite. We have therefore ended with all manner of contrived regulations, and team orders are in some way a response to the enforced compromises to meet those regs. |
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25 Mar 2013, 21:10 (Ref:3224652) | #40 | |
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Well the reason that Mark was aggrieved (and I do not blame him) was the team had him turn the car down and to go to max engine conserve making Vettal's pass easy.
If those orders had not been issued would Vettal have made the pass?, I am not sure as I did not catch the race but if Webber had been in front for 30ish laps there is no reason to suggest he would not have stayed there if not ordered to slow down. I would be ****ed as well if I was Mark. |
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25 Mar 2013, 21:22 (Ref:3224657) | #41 | ||
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i am curious to know how much of his anger was directed at himself for trusting someone he really should have stopped trusting a long time ago. since before they were even team mates Vettel's been punting him of track.
not trying to take a dig on either of them but not much in their history to suggest that they have each others backs. part of me want to say that MW should have known better and that he is also in the unique position to have known better also no problems with team orders btw. in fact im sort of scared if those that hate them find out about all the other 'secret choices' made in unison behind closed doors they are really going to be angry! |
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25 Mar 2013, 21:27 (Ref:3224664) | #42 | ||
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Are team orders racing ?
Well not strictly speaking, however they are allowed and the drivers must obey the team principal.. Me Vettel that goes for you as well as everyone else.. Two race ban.. |
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25 Mar 2013, 21:48 (Ref:3224677) | #43 | ||
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I don't mind team orders when it is late in the season and one guy is closer to the championship than the other. This is only the second race! Total BS!!!!
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25 Mar 2013, 21:50 (Ref:3224678) | #44 | ||
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@ Lancsbreaker
Thanks for the response |
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25 Mar 2013, 21:59 (Ref:3224687) | #45 | ||
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Red Bull Racing are probably to blame for not designating number one and two status. Rosberg should have at least been given a shot at reeling in the two RBR cars. He may have pushed them into running out of fuel, and if he couldn't get one of them in between himself and Hamilton then he would have to drop back behind the "designated" team leader. Ugly but it was ugly anyway. |
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25 Mar 2013, 22:48 (Ref:3224728) | #46 | ||||
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About the question, unfortunately, team orders are part of the racing culture and that's all about it really. |
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25 Mar 2013, 23:01 (Ref:3224732) | #47 | ||||
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Just because there is a long history of team orders in F1 doesn't make it right now. It used to be acceptable for several drivers per year to be killed, but times have changed. I thoroughly dislike team orders because it is a gross distortion of the sport. It was much better when team orders were banned, even though we have to be pragmatic and recognise that it still went on. But it was kept under control, and teams that attempted to manipulate results knew that they were in danger of being penalised (a few more actual penalties would have helped). Having said that, we are where we are. Team orders are allowed, and the disobeying of team orders by a driver are a matter of team discipline. This is where Red Bull seem to have really fallen down, and Christian Horner must lose a lot of credibility as a result. He didn't even try to tell Vettel to give the place back because he says he knew it would be ignored! Whereas Red Bull's ineffective team orders would seem to have been a sensible plan from the team's point of view (cruising to a 1-2 finish), I find Mercedes successful application of team orders more perplexing. I entirely understand why Hamilton was obliged to go so slowly (fuel and tyres) but so far as we know Rosberg didn't have the same problems. He could have charged forward, put a bit of pressure on Red Bull and maybe pinched a place or two if something had gone awry for Red Bull in the last few laps. What's more, if Button had not had his pitstop problem he would have been threatening Mercedes from behind. |
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26 Mar 2013, 00:24 (Ref:3224765) | #48 | |
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26 Mar 2013, 00:48 (Ref:3224773) | #49 | |||||
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I think the team are trying to get the best result for the team rather than individual driver much the same as cricket team tries to get the best result for the team rather than for any individual player. |
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26 Mar 2013, 01:10 (Ref:3224779) | #50 | |||
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1. It brings these team orders into it, and 2. Forces the engine manufacturers to spend lots of money trying to design the smallest lightest most powerful engine AND make it last. They have restricted using components made of unobtainium to keep the physical cost of materials down, so what's the big deal about stamping out a few more blocks and let them use their engines each race. You won't see any team orders to conserve engines, although I am sure you'd still see them for fuel and 'OMG don't crash into each other you idiots' moments. |
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