Punishment for not wearing a HANs device?

[OrangeD]

What would the punishment be if a HANs device is not worn, if it is in the REGs that it must be worn?

[88racing]

In theory you shouldn't even make it to the circuit.

[OrangeD]

I know, when I heard I thought it was awful, would they be excluded, a fine?

[Slipstick]

Initially you'd have had to show the device to get a scrutineering ticket. After that presumably it would be like trying to get out on circuit without seatbelts or a helmet or fireproof overalls. You wouldn't get out of the assembly area.

So I suppose that is effectively exclusion.

Steve

[Apple]

Originally Posted by OrangeD

What would the punishment be if a HANs device is not worn, if it is in the REGs that it must be worn?

If it's in the reg's why would you not be wearing one?

[OrangeD]

Yes I agree, but what if it's not checked in assembly, if they are trusted to have one on, what would the punishment as such be?

[Slipstick]

Well if no-one ever notices that they weren't actually wearing one there would presumably be no punishment.

Steve

[peebee2]

DQ after the race plus appropriate action. Nobody in the assembly area has the proper authority to be able to legitimately do anything.

[andrewc]

Last year, in the Walter Hayes FF races, Peter Dempsey was excluded for racing without a HANS. MSA regulation C3.1.1 (Eligibility).

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by peebee2

DQ after the race plus appropriate action. Nobody in the assembly area has the proper authority to be able to legitimately do anything.

That is true, and the same of nearly all aspects of marshalling. All we can do is advise, then after further refusal, report to RC.

In this case I would radio through to RC and ask advice. I am fairly certain in 99%+ of cases the CoC would ask us to prevent the entrant leaving Assembly.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by OrangeD

What would the punishment be if a HANs device is not worn, if it is in the REGs that it must be worn?

Much increased chance of a broken neck....

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by andrewc

Last year, in the Walter Hayes FF races, Peter Dempsey was excluded for racing without a HANS. MSA regulation C3.1.1 (Eligibility).

Indeed he was. I wonder who actually spotted and reported it (PC, Assembly, S/L etc)?

[OrangeD]

But no one has spotted it, other than another driver or two. Because they all get ready in their awnings in paddock and are trusted to be wearing it.

[flagwaver]

Same with most things if no one in a position to do anything about doesn't see it then what can be done?

A several years ago at the FF festival a car went off at clearways, whilst we were trying to sort the car out a member of the team came out and tried to take something from the car. Turned out it was a piece of metal to stop the extinguisher working. Team reason, knock out style of the event they didn't want for a marshal to "accidentally" let it off preventing their progress. As you can imagine they were thrown out

[The Fat Clerk]

Surely Marshals in Assembly should be checking things like Gloves, HANS etc.
It's certainly in their Training Manuals.

[OrangeD]

It's hard to explain how it hasn't been spotted without mentioning the championship which I'd rather not specify. I shall be having a look around at their next race meeting to check.

[Woolley]

So it seems that the question is not general, but specific and relating to an incident that may have happened somewhere.

In that case, a protest either to CofC at the event or to series co-ordinator. In a busy assembly/pit lane/parc ferme and insufficient marshals they can't be expected to spot everything, however hard they try. if you're aware of something then it can be drawn to the attention of an appropriate person at an appropriate time.

I suspect the problem now may be proving it happened. A good co-ordinator, having had it reported to them, might have a word with the alleged miscreant to advise them that they've had the report and it will be watched for in future.

[midgetman]

You also have to be very sure the driver doesn't have every right to be HANS-less. For instance, some period defined cars are exempt. As a driver I would expect it to be referred to a scrutineer or CoC rather than a marshal telling me what to do. I suppose I'd be happy if someone said "Max you've forgotten your HANS device you muppet" rather than getting all official, but if I did race without it I'd expect to be disqualified at post event scrutineering if I were caught.

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[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Surely Marshals in Assembly should be checking things like Gloves, HANS etc.
It's certainly in their Training Manuals.

Indeed, but "technically" they are all "scrutineering" issues. Our main purpose in Assembly is to check in cars and assemble them in order.

Of course we do check if at all possible but it really does depend on time and number of guys in assembly, lateness of cars to assembly, how quick the drivers get in the cars. It can get pretty difficult when you are doing it on your todd - which both Nina and I have done many times).

I think realistically if I see an issue regarding PPE I will remind the driver (and did so this weekend - no gloves, driver forgot to put them on - solved in 5 secs, no hassle). However, if there is an issue (ie driver gets stroppy, or has left his HANS in motorhome ten mins away) all we can do is report to RC for further advice. As I say, regarding non wearing of HANS then I am 99% sure a CoC would ask us to prevent track entry (Dave - can you elaborate on that?).

If it is spotted as the cars leaves (or later whilst on circuit) - then again all we can do is report it. The CoC does have the option of a Black and Orange, or Black to bring the driver back in. Further post race penalties are surely up to the CoC to apply as appropriate (example being Exclusion mentioned earlier)?

Of course one has to be aware of the extent of HANS regs, as said it only applies to some series. Most historic is exempt.

The other thing to be aware of is that a HANS device can be worn with a "normal" 3" harness, or a HANS harness. However, a HANS harness cannot be used without a HANS device. With a specific HANS harness the belts are narrower around the chest area.

I have also had a driver wearing the HANS over the belts, rather than under. He really hadn't got the concept!

Slightly off subject - but the list of stuff I check in Assembly is mostly (if time etc);

Scrutineering ticket
Competition Numbers
Car leakages
Ask driver to check Ext is armed
Gloves
Helmet - I quietly look for MSA sticker
Boots (whilst drivers stand around nattering)
HANS - easy check, works for both HANS and Simpson type, look for straps attached to helmet posts whilst driver strapped in.
Bonnet/boot pins secure
Towing eyes

[MGDavid]

Yes the age of vehicle exemption applies for all Period definitions i.e. up to the end of Period H which is 31st December 1976.
http://www.msauk.org/assets/5366nome...finitionsb.pdf

[OrangeD]

I know it is in the REGs for these guys, cause a different driver (not the ones in question) got caught by the championship coordinator, not wearing it under his belts, and got a telling off and had to put it under the seat belts.

[Woolley]

To be honest, that's just dumb. Spend a lot of money on something that can save your life, then wear it in a way that won't...

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Surely Marshals in Assembly should be checking things like Gloves, HANS etc.
It's certainly in their Training Manuals.

They usually do, as with checking pins are out of extinguishers. I did manage to get onto the grid at Snetterton a couple of years ago without fastening my crash helmet up. Luckily a pit wall marshal noticed it and there was much waving of arms in the direction of the starter. I did managed to do it up in about 5 seconds or the race would've been delayed and no doubt I'd have been given a slap with the Blue book after.

[mark_l]

I noticed a driver on the grid didn't appear to have a legality sticker on their helmet, I was unable to find a scrutineer in time and the cars went on the green flag lap. During this lap I found a scrutineer and when the cars reformed on the grid, we walked on to the grid, the scrutineer looked at the offending car and ordered it off the grid. The driver was called to the stewards and admitted presenting a different helmet at scrutineering, but wore the illegal (life expired) helmet as it had a nice paint job.

The stewards excluded him from the meeting and retained the illegal helmet.

Even if the assembly area miss something it is not too late to spot it on the grid, better that, than after an accident.



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[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by mark_l

I noticed a driver on the grid didn't appear to have a legality sticker on their helmet,

We ran without MSA stickers on our crash helmets for 6 months - as none of the scrutineers at the events we did had any stickers!