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Old 29 Jul 2010, 12:13 (Ref:2735102)   #1
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Does F1 need a "championship"?

As split from the Ferrari ranting thread:

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Originally Posted by jab View Post
I still believe they should just get rid of the Formula 1 World Championship in general and just have standalone F1 Grands Prix, more than now, linked by a largely superfluous ranking system. See tennis, golf, cycling et all
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Why? What does the championship add to F1?

Alternatively, getting rid of it would get rid of some of the things people whinge most about:

- team orders

- drivers not taking risks and driving for championship points

- the points system

- wins not meaning enough

- not enough races on traditional circuits or in traditional motor racing heartlands

Also:

- costs would come down (as the entry lists would be opened up to a race-by-race basis instead of annual)

- loads more new teams (see above)

- removes the question of why teams enter if they have no chance of winning the championship (because winning races would be the most important thing)

The World Championship is so pointless. All it determines is who the F1 World Champion is. Other than that, it means nothing. F1 could be so much more flexible and interesting without the championship - it restricts F1's format and yet there is no need for it. It's only there because it's there. It's completely superfluous
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 12:24 (Ref:2735110)   #2
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Jab, radical thought but;

Getting rid of the championship won't get rid of team orders. A team may want a driver to pull over and let his team mate through to win a particular race for all sorts of reasons.

Fans would start their own unofficial championship adding up who won the most races etc.

Yes I think it does need a championship as it gives a focus and a meaning to the season of racing.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 12:24 (Ref:2735111)   #3
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I'd not have a problem if the championship was scrapped but it'll never happen.

Everything is geared towards it nowadays.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 12:39 (Ref:2735120)   #4
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Yes. Tradition, everyone loves a champion, be it team or driver, so the media has to have an avenue to feed that public demand. As the pinnacle of World Motor Racing the gig should have a seasonal purpose and winner.

However, as we hear more and more of the Team this and the Team that, the car is 90% of the equation, the best designer is more needed than the top driver, or the strategist has more influence right through to the test team on the shaker jig / simulator back at the factory, I do wish that the emphasis and indeed media focus, was more skewed towards the Constructors Championship. It might keep some of the drivers egoes back in line if they were to be portrayed more of a smaller part of a large team than the media focus that they currently positioned.

Having spent a paragraph diminishing the driver role in the championship outcome, I would however always want there to be a drivers championship as well.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 12:57 (Ref:2735130)   #5
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Jab, radical thought but;

Getting rid of the championship won't get rid of team orders. A team may want a driver to pull over and let his team mate through to win a particular race for all sorts of reasons.
I personally doubt it

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Yes I think it does need a championship as it gives a focus and a meaning to the season of racing.
Yes but look at those other sports that I mentioned - they don't have a championship as such and yet it doesn't make a difference. Each individual event is what is worth winning, and we already have several GPs that have a similar status - Monaco, Britain, Italy, Belgium

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Yes. Tradition
Team orders are traditional as well

There hasn't always been an F1 World Championship, though. And even after it was formed, it was never really a big thing until the mid-late 60s when you see the number of non-championship races decline. There were more non-champ races than championship rounds for a long time

It's also worth remembering that one of the other pinnacles of world motorsport, the WRC, didn't have a drivers championship for the first few years of its existence. Rallying's a good example of how it can work, as you've got loads of rallies going on but only about 12 are world championship rounds, and yet they're all competing in roughly the same sort of machinery. Even the top works drivers compete in what are for them non-championship rounds - Loeb does the odd French rally with his wife as co-driver, while Hirvonen did the Monte Carlo this year
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:07 (Ref:2735144)   #6
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it's a really interesting idea - instead of points for a championship, you enter for a particular race and have a VAST prize fund that is paid out immediately after the race. teams would only enter for the serious business races and avoid the crappy ones. if the promoters of the crappy ones want more teams to attend, they offer financial or logistic incentives. way better than that big brown envelope they have to hand bernie every year.

of course it'd make bernie redundant, and turkeys don't vote for christmas
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:11 (Ref:2735146)   #7
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we hear more and more of the Team this and the Team that, the car is 90% of the equation, the best designer is more needed than the top driver, or the strategist has more influence right through to the test team on the shaker jig / simulator back at the factory
Yes, we do.

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I do wish that the emphasis and indeed media focus, was more skewed towards the Constructors Championship. It might keep some of the drivers egoes back in line if they were to be portrayed more of a smaller part of a large team than the media focus that they currently positioned.
I don't, we have sports car racing for that, where each car has two or three drivers. F1 is about individuals. Senna beating Prost or viceversa. Schumacher beating everyone else. Villeneuve, Hakkinen, Montoya, Alonso beating Schumacher. Raikkonen, Massa, Alonso, Hamilton, Button, Vettel, Weber trying to beat each other.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:16 (Ref:2735152)   #8
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it's a really interesting idea - instead of points for a championship, you enter for a particular race and have a VAST prize fund that is paid out immediately after the race. teams would only enter for the serious business races and avoid the crappy ones. if the promoters of the crappy ones want more teams to attend, they offer financial or logistic incentives. way better than that big brown envelope they have to hand bernie every year.
But then you would end up with the same situation we have now where oil-rich countries offer the largest incentives and therefore get more races then historically motorsport rich Europe and North America.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:24 (Ref:2735159)   #9
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But with this, you'd have so many races anyway it wouldn't matter - you could expand the calendar to 30-40 races

Tennis and golf have some events in the Middle East - definitely in Dubai, I know that. But the major tournaments are the traditional ones, because tradition is always more important to the fans. The Middle/Far East countries might be able to offer large prize funds but they can't compete with history

And I'm sure Ferrari would enter as many races as possible, just to make a point. And there would still be a constructors/teams ranking system as well so there are benefits to entering a reasonable number of races
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:24 (Ref:2735160)   #10
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BCE, CVC et al wouldn't make money from it, ergo - it will not happen.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:38 (Ref:2735172)   #11
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If you create some other radically different system for ranking, teams will just game the system in other ways. We will be right back where we are today, but with some other violation where someone is playing just slightly over the wrong side of the line.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:43 (Ref:2735175)   #12
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Scrapping the championship? it would not work... Imagine all the new threads... "No championship vs old system points"

hah!
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 13:48 (Ref:2735180)   #13
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But then you would end up with the same situation we have now where oil-rich countries offer the largest incentives and therefore get more races then historically motorsport rich Europe and North America.
the established races generate more publicity without the need for incentives... the only change is that the race fee instead of going to bernies pocket goes straight to the teams via free airfreight, seafreight, hotels, etc etc.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 14:06 (Ref:2735192)   #14
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Tennis and golf have some events in the Middle East - definitely in Dubai, I know that. But the major tournaments are the traditional ones, because tradition is always more important to the fans. The Middle/Far East countries might be able to offer large prize funds but they can't compete with history
in those sports the size of TV contracts and corporate endorsement certainly favour the traditional events. a Middle Eaat event might provide a bigger purse, but Nike or Reebok dont give out contracts based on who won the Dubai Open. so the incentive is definitely there for the drivers.

but what would the manufacturers do? their though making process is difficult to understand in the best of times but to operate without the guise of a championship and the ability to differentiate themselves from each other what incentive would they have to race each other? for example, under this system would Ferrari not just be better off taking 20 cars to Monaco each year and just run a giant "advertising" type race?
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 14:09 (Ref:2735195)   #15
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Well there is differentiation - 1) there are still race winners and losers, and 2) there would still be rankings, they would just be of reduced importance as they are in other sports. The teams still rank winning the Monaco GP highly. It's like Le Mans - it's not part of a championship (at the moment) but manufacturers still enter it and sponsors still sponsor
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 14:20 (Ref:2735204)   #16
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It's like Le Mans - it's not part of a championship (at the moment) but manufacturers still enter it and sponsors still sponsor
very good point.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 14:31 (Ref:2735210)   #17
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There hasn't always been an F1 World Championship, though. And even after it was formed, it was never really a big thing until the mid-late 60s when you see the number of non-championship races decline. There were more non-champ races than championship rounds for a long time
But prior to the World Championship, when the major races were in Europe, and Europe by travel and logistics back then was the nucleus of World Motor Racing, there was an ongoing European Championship from 1930 ish.

Yes I agree there were always a host of non championship GP's, but even back then there were some more prestigious and greater beneficial propaganda generators than others, and they formed the European Championship. Those GPs that attracted all of the major factory entrants to race at, and of course the public interest.

There has, it seems, nearly always been a pinnacle in motor racing. Even when they were fighting for the Vanderbilt Cup in the early 1900's. Or striving to win the European GP from 1923 on.

Again with WRC Rallying yes there was no driver/ navigator championship in the early days, but there was a very prestigious and fiercely fought manufacturers world championship. And from the very early 1950's there was a European Rally Championship, comprising of what were regarded as 'the classics'. Monte Carlo, the Tulip, the Liège, the Lisbon Rally, the Rally to the Midnight Sun (Sweden), the Rally of the 1000 Lakes (Finland), and the Acropolis Rally in Greece.

In the same way there was a World Sportscar Championship.

Im not so sure I agree with you on the WDC not meaning much pre the mid 1960's. Of course there were other equivalent almost individual events such as Le Mans, but I have read of crowds of several hundred thousand at the Nordschleife for the German GP, and hell, even King George V1 and Queen Elizabeth went to the British GP back in 1950,(as did over 100,000 spectators.) Heck even non championship races at Goodwood would attract 50,000. In the days when cars were rare and cross country travel was not easy. Motor racing, not just F1 / Grand Prix, was of huge public interest in the post WW2 era as well as pre war.

I bet you there would be fewer people had not heard of Stirling Moss than Fernando Alonso.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 14:43 (Ref:2735215)   #18
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I have LONG held that there is no need for a championship. Start a poll right now. "Who is the best driver in Formula 1?" You will get different responses but I am guessing at least 75% will go for Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel (in alphabetical order). None of whom is the current champion.

Golf does not have a world title, tennis does not. Doesn't stop people wondering who the world's best is. The F1 title is not a guarantee that the best driver will win it. And people would have to be intensely stupid to base an opinion as to the best driver on the basis of the arbitrary and ghostly nature of "championship points".

Scrap the world title, and maybe you would get things like Hamilton at the Indy 500 or Alonso in the Daytona 500. Probably not. But the title does not add much to motor racing, other than an overlying narrative which is not really needed.

Caracciola's reputation does not suffer because he was never a world champ. I know they had an intermittent European title in the 1930s but it was never taken seriously, the extent that Huhnlein declared Lang champion in 1939 and nobody gave a monkey's toss that it didn't work out to the Great God of Points for 60 years. Indeed the best drivers deffed out one of the few rounds searching for the Yankee dollar. Fangio's 1956 world title was less important to Ferrari than trying to win the Italian Grand Prix. There's no need for it to have the all-encompassing importance it has; just scrap it and make everyone turn up to the appropriate races.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2735289)   #19
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I bet you there would be fewer people had not heard of Stirling Moss than Fernando Alonso.
You mean fewer people would've heard of someone who has won the championship than those who would've heard of someone who never won the championship?

If that's the case, surely that proves the championship ultimately doesn't mean that much
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 17:03 (Ref:2735313)   #20
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Well there is differentiation - 1) there are still race winners and losers, and 2) there would still be rankings, they would just be of reduced importance as they are in other sports. The teams still rank winning the Monaco GP highly. It's like Le Mans - it's not part of a championship (at the moment) but manufacturers still enter it and sponsors still sponsor
I don't think anyone is going to race for the sake of being a winner, long gone are the days of gentlemen driver's racing for the hell of it. If the importance is reduced, then I don't think there will be that many takers. Having a championship for driver and constructor brings an incentive, a goal which would not be there if there was no championship.

The Le Mans situation is quite different. It was part of the defunct World Sportscar Championship but it also has an established tradition, which is quite unique to motorsports which is why it is still very popular. It's history has to be taken into account. When Le Mans was conceived, GP racing already existed, the idea behind Le Mans was to race reliable sports cars, rather than race the fastest cars as in GP racing.

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Old 29 Jul 2010, 17:10 (Ref:2735318)   #21
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I don't think anyone is going to race for the sake of there being a winner
...
Le Mans situation is quite different. It was part of the defunct World Sportscar Championship but it also has an established tradition, which is quite unique to motorsports which is why it is still very popular.
3 points

1) You're contradicting yourself. They either do or they don't. Monaco is an established tradition as well and all the drivers want to win there. And so on...

2) Does Rafa Nadal not bother entering any tennis tournaments because there's no world tennis championship?

3) Ultimately, it's the teams who decide, not the drivers, and if the teams want to race in F1, the drivers will either follow or they'll be out of a job
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 17:23 (Ref:2735325)   #22
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You mean fewer people would've heard of someone who has won the championship than those who would've heard of someone who never won the championship?

If that's the case, surely that proves the championship ultimately doesn't mean that much
My comment was a point, amongst others, to challenge (Jab's) statement that I disagree with, namely re the WDC that, ''even after it was formed, it was never really a big thing until the mid-late 60s".

I believe it was of quite significant interest.

Another event that I might add to confirm International interest in Motor Racing and F1 drivers was the fact Fangio was kidnapped in 1958 at the Cuban Grand Prix,
by the ‘Movement of the Twenty-sixth July’, a Castro political organization.

The purpose of kidnapping Fangio and his manager at gunpoint, and holding them as kidnapped captives being to use Fangio's huge International profile and fame as multiple WDC, to focus world attention on their political movement, which was in opposition to the ruling President Batista and his regime.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 17:32 (Ref:2735336)   #23
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Unfair to turkeys

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it's a really interesting idea - instead of points for a championship, you enter for a particular race and have a VAST prize fund that is paid out immediately after the race. teams would only enter for the serious business races and avoid the crappy ones. if the promoters of the crappy ones want more teams to attend, they offer financial or logistic incentives. way better than that big brown envelope they have to hand bernie every year.

of course it'd make bernie redundant, and turkeys don't vote for christmas
This is a rubbish analogy - the problem turkeys have is that they make an important enjoyable contribution to Christmas.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 17:49 (Ref:2735350)   #24
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Oh, this thread made my day.
Thanks for the laughs, Jab.
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Old 29 Jul 2010, 19:20 (Ref:2735390)   #25
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bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!bjohnsonsmith is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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Originally Posted by jab View Post
3 points

1) You're contradicting yourself. They either do or they don't. Monaco is an established tradition as well and all the drivers want to win there. And so on...

2) Does Rafa Nadal not bother entering any tennis tournaments because there's no world tennis championship?

3) Ultimately, it's the teams who decide, not the drivers, and if the teams want to race in F1, the drivers will either follow or they'll be out of a job
I don't think I'm contradicting my self at all. It's too simplistic to say either they do or they don't, especillay in the context of Le Mans. Le Mans was part of a championship but is now a stand alone race but it is uniqe, with a long history and it's the home of endurance racing; this has to be taken into account and is why Le Mans continues. Le Mans is effectively a championship in it's own right, with it's own rules and specifications.

Like Le Mans, the various Grand Slam tennis tournaments are championships in their own right, held on different surfaces, with the French open being conducted in French; the tennis equivalent of rules and specifications. There isn't a tennis world championship, however, the nearest thing to a world championship is winning every Grand Slam tournament and that would be a very good reason as to whetherRafal Nadal bothers to enter a tournament or not.

Glad you started this thread, should be interesting.

Last edited by bjohnsonsmith; 29 Jul 2010 at 19:28.
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