[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

Just think if they were 800kg with a little more power. LMP in the alms a few years back were just as fast as indy car on certain tracks.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Slowest F1 cars of 2012 can be outpaced by 2007-2010-spec LMP1 cars on the right tracks and under the right conditions anyway.

Whatever you mean with "right tracks and right conditions", but quick look at qual & race laps says that claim is pure fabrication.

Originally Posted by TF110

Theyre around 8 seconds per lap faster than lmp1 now. If lmp1 gets faster in 2014 and the f1 cars were slowed down by that much, they could well have been outpaced or at least a close match.

It hasn't been 8 seconds since 2008. Won't bother calculating averages but more like 10 seconds and clearly even more if only pole laps are compared.

[gregtummer]

In 2008, the Audi R10 was only 3 tenths off of the IRL pole time at St. Petersburg.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by deggis

Whatever you mean with "right tracks and right conditions", but quick look at qual & race laps says that claim is pure fabrication.

HRT at Interlagos this year vs the Pug 908 back in 2007, HRTs in the 1:19s in quali, Pug fastest race lap 1:18.707.

Of course, that depends on whether you count the HRTs as proper F1 cars.

[deggis]

Coincidentally didn't check 2007 times but 2008 - so ok, not pure fabrication but a lot of that might be because of night time and other tracks I compared (Barcelona, Monza, Spa) tell a different story.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by deggis

Coincidentally didn't check 2007 times but 2008 - so ok, not pure fabrication but a lot of that might be because of night time and other tracks I compared (Barcelona, Monza, Spa) tell a different story.

That's why I said right tracks and right conditions. But yeah, it's far more of an exception than a rule.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

It hasn't been 8 seconds since 2008. Won't bother calculating averages but more like 10 seconds and clearly even more if only pole laps are compared.

Yeah, but not always correct. The fastest lap at Spa this year was in the 1:52.822. Compared to 2:01.851 for the Audi E-Tron. A little bit higher than 8 seconds. Shanghai fastest lap 1:39.96 in F1, 1:48.815 Toyota TS030 A little bit higher than 8 seconds. Some of the races were about 10 seconds, some were less. Bahrain was done in extreme heat for the WEC race, if it were earlier or later in the year the times could have been faster. Brazil was even closer, but F1's race was somewhat wet most the time.

[gregtummer]

It would be awesome to see some combined 2 class races with F1 as the top class and LMP1 as the bottom class!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

It would be awesome to see some combined 2 class races with F1 as the top class and LMP1 as the bottom class!

You are going to be VERY unpopular if you don't clearly state that you use sarcasm in that post . (And I'm not sure if you do, use Sarcasm)
(I use sarcasm in the term "Very" of course).

But Gregtummer, remember you post in the Sportscar section of the Forum. The place where most posters place LMP's and GT's above all.
We do not like to put as "bottom" class to something like F1 .
Besides, having a Series running both F1's and Lmp1's would be contradicting, F1's are Sprint cars, LMP1's are Endurance.
The fact that LMP1's are only 8-10 seconds slower is more a proof of F1 being slow than LMP1's being fast (which they of course is, but compared to the fact that F1's are supposed to be the fastest machines around a track)

And Merry Christmas (I'll stop editting now)

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by CTD

You are going to be VERY unpopular if you don't clearly state that you use sarcasm in that post . (And I'm not sure if you do, use Sarcasm)
(I use sarcasm in the term "Very" of course).

But Gregtummer, remember you post in the Sportscar section of the Forum. The place where most posters place LMP's and GT's above all.
We do not like to put as "bottom" class to something like F1 .
Besides, having a Series running both F1's and Lmp1's would be contradicting, F1's are Sprint cars, LMP1's are Endurance.
The fact that LMP1's are only 8-10 seconds slower is more a proof of F1 being slow than LMP1's being fast (which they of course is, but compared to the fact that F1's are supposed to be the fastest machines around a track)

And Merry Christmas (I'll stop editting now)

But it would be interesting to see a few races like that. Like at Spa or Silverstone.

And for the record, I much prefer LMPs to F1. But since F1 is 8-10 seconds a lap faster than LMPs, it would make sense for them to be the top class.

[davehenrie]

Not to mention, the obvious problem with F1's exposed tires. The Wee Scot in the Audi would only need to graze the F1 car and it's suspension would collapse. Imagine, ok lets play along... imagine the F1 car with large headlamps mounted above(or probably on) the front tires. And imagine the F1 team only being able to use one gun at a time with only two tire changers.(sportscar forum so the teams must use Sportscar rules!) lol This is fun! Finally, F1 cars are rather cramped. Where will they hide the utility tool kit?

dh

[TF110]

LMP1's only lose out to F1 in the lower speed corners (because of weight) and the acceleration (again weight and power). They probably make as much downforce and are capable of more. That's why I was hoping the future LMP regulations would be something like 700-800kg, not this 850kg+ crap. Maybe the FIA realized these cars would be getting serious speed, maybe it was more down to makers not able to go that low of a weight, but I doubt that would be a major issue. A smaller turbo engine with ERS' I don't see making the cars too much more than 800kg.

[gwyllion]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/..._12122802.html has an interview with Ulrich Baretzky about the 2014 engine rules.

No real new information. He just says that it is challenging to find the optimal solution for an efficient engine and that is difficult to balance diesel and petrol engines because diesel engines are typically more efficient, but heavier (which affects handling).

[CTD]

Just looking through my pictures from Le Mans, and spotted that on several cars, the rear wheels is visible through the BHH. How does this work with the regulations that says the rear wheels may not be visible from behind (the rule that forced the louvres behind the rear wheels)

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just looking through my pictures from Le Mans, and spotted that on several cars, the rear wheels is visible through the BHH. How does this work with the regulations that says the rear wheels may not be visible from behind (the rule that forced the louvres behind the rear wheels)

The regulations regarding the BHH allow the tire the be visible (though only the tire).

[CTD]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

The regulations regarding the BHH allow the tire the be visible (though only the tire).

Thanks Mike!

[gwyllion]

Some interesting quotes from the WMS13 keynote of FIA technical director Bernard Niclot:

Weight is the enemy [of efficiency in road and race cars].

There are 3 types of championship - technology showcases (F1, WEC); marketing-led (WRC, touring cars); and customer (GT etc.)

Formula E will need tight regulations to get it started effectively, but later we will open up a lot of engineering freedom.

Energy efficiency is the main target for the WEC rules n 2014.

In an efficiency formula it's vital you control the fuel flow, rather than allowing people to burn fuel initially then ease off.

Between 2010 and 2014 Le Mans fuel consumption is projected to drop by the same percentage as it did in the previous 22 yrs.

Prototypes or bolt-on kits unlikely, but we could well see hybrids based on existing road cars coming to the WRC or WTCC.

Motorsport (via technical innovation it produces) is just about the only sport that could actually reduce global CO2.

We would be open to reducing motorsport weight limits if it had a demonstrable relevance to road car efficiency.

source: https://twitter.com/RaceTechmag

[gustavobamba]

With new regulations in 2014 for both F1 and WEC today a read an article in Autosport that talks about the new 1.6 v6 turbo from Mercedes. in the interview i read this "The current KERS currently produces 80hp for 6.7 seconds per lap, while the new ERS will deliver 161 hp for 33.3 seconds per lap."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/105080


The new engines will produce 750 bhp.

Did anyone know what power will produce the new LMP1´s???

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

The new engines will produce 750 bhp.

Did anyone know what power will produce the new LMP1´s???

It's 750 bhp for the F1 engine with the energy recovery systems pushing out the maximum allowed power, the engine itself is in the 600bhp area actually.

[gwyllion]

The 2014 F1 rules restrict the fuel flow of the internal combustion engine to 100 kg/h and the ERS to 4 MJ/lap.

The 2014 LMP1 rules allow different ERS options (0 upto 8 MJ). Considering that a Le Mans lap is double the length of most F1 laps, it is best to look at the 8 MJ/lap ERS option. For this option, the fuel flow of the internal combustion engine is restricted to 85 kg/h (for petrol fuel).

If a 2014 F1 engine can produce 600 hp with 100 kg/h, then it would produce around 510 hp with 85 kg/h.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The 2014 F1 rules restrict the fuel flow of the internal combustion engine to 100 kg/h and the ERS to 4 MJ/lap.

The 2014 LMP1 rules allow different ERS options (0 upto 8 MJ). Considering that a Le Mans lap is double the length of most F1 laps, it is best to look at the 8 MJ/lap ERS option. For this option, the fuel flow of the internal combustion engine is restricted to 85 kg/h (for petrol fuel).

If a 2014 F1 engine can produce 600 hp with 100 kg/h, then it would produce around 510 hp with 85 kg/h.

Assuming that F1 ERS will be 160 bhp for 33 seconds in a total of 750bhp, what would be the figures of an LMP1??

500 bhp + ERS (how many bhp?) for (how many seconds?) in a total of (how many bhp?)

Did the Toyota Hybrid really produce 300 bhp? for how long?

Seems to me that in the future some team´s could adopt detuned F1 engines!!!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Assuming that F1 ERS will be 160 bhp for 33 seconds in a total of 750bhp, what would be the figures of an LMP1??

500 bhp + ERS (how many bhp?) for (how many seconds?) in a total of (how many bhp?)

In 2014 F1 the output of the ERS is restricted to 120 kW = 160 bhp. That means that the ERS can release 4 MJ/lap at a rate of 120 kW. Hence it can be active for 4000 kJ / 120 kW = 33.3 seconds per lap.

The 2014 LMP1 rules do not restrict the output of the ERS. The manufacturers have to chose at which rate to release the 8 MJ/lap ERS.

• 8 MJ/lap means 880 kW = 1200 bhp for 9 seconds
• 8 MJ/lap means 440 kW = 600 bhp for 18 seconds
• 8 MJ/lap means 220 kW = 300 bhp for 36 seconds
• 8 MJ/lap means 110 kW = 150 bhp for 73 seconds
• ...

The manufacturers need to determine which strategy yields the fastest lap time. Last year Toyota has shown that releasing the energy fast, immediately out of corners, seems the best approach.

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Did the Toyota Hybrid really produce 300 bhp? for how long?

Why would Toyota lie about that number?

The current LMP1 rules allow for 500 kJ per braking zone. So the Toyota KERS will be active for 500 kJ / 220 kW = 2.3 seconds per braking zone.

The output power of the Audi KERS is only 150 kW = 200 bhp. So it will be active for 500 kJ / 150 kW = 3.3 seconds per braking zone.

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Seems to me that in the future some team´s could adopt detuned F1 engines!!!

Yes, this is/was the plan.

[gustavobamba]

Do you see any team using the Mercedes V6 engine??? :-) our the Renault V6 or even the Ferrari V6???

It would be nice to see the 14´ Wirth Coupe with a Mercedes engine :-)

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Do you see any team using the Mercedes V6 engine??? :-) our the Renault V6 or even the Ferrari V6???

It would be nice to see the 14´ Wirth Coupe with a Mercedes engine :-)

Short answer: no. I suspect that some old P1 customer engines might be reborn though... weren't Judd saying something about the possibility of resurrecting the GV5/5.5 for the 2014 rules?

[gwyllion]

The latest RCE edition has an article about the 2014 LMP1 rules, that contains a lot of interesting simulations to predict the lap time, top speed, best engine configuration, etc. :

The author simulated two engine configurations (small 2.8 V6 vs big 4.0 V8) and concludes that the bigger engine is the best option.

• 2.8 V6:
  • peak torque: 337 Nm
  • peak power: 364 hp
  • lap time: 3:45.46
  • top speed: 276 km/h
  • fuel consumption: 4.95 liter/lap
• 4.0 V8:
  • peak torque: 492 Nm
  • peak power: 497 hp
  • lap time: 3:39.88
  • top speed: 277 km/h
  • fuel consumption: 4.95 liter/lap

He gives this explanation for better lap time:

In the lower gears, the extra power is used to accelerate faster out of the corners, which helps a lot for the lap time. At this moment the stronger engine uses more fuel compared to the less powerful engine. However, as both setups shift to the higher gears, the bigger engine is more and more short shifted, reducing the engine rpm and subsequently the fuel consumption. Next to this advantage, the more powerful engine is constantly run in a more effective rpm range. Its theoretical efficiency is close to 35 per cent whereas the smaller engine runs 32-33 per cent.

This confirms why Judd believes a big, low revving V10 is better option than small, high revving V8.

The author also analyzed the impact in lap time of other improvements.

• baseline (4.0 V8): 3:39.88
• +5% downforce: 3:39.46 -> -0.42 sec
• -5% drag: 3:38.41 -> -1.45 sec
• +5% engine efficiency: 3:36.47 -> -3.41 sec

So the manufacturers will have to focus on reducing aerodynamic drag and improve the engine efficiency.