[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Machin

Why? don't we want to see the best technology regardless of what fuel it uses?

That's my vote.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

How do we know Mr. Kino's words aren't truthful? How do we know the Audi's aren't playing games with regards to how efficient their diesels are? There's always two sides, so don't fault one.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=2278
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=2280

[TF110]

That's not confirmation to me. That's math based off some comments that may have been wrong. There's a lot more to it we'll see soon.

[deggis]

At least we can see the math behind those numbers.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by TF110

How do we know Mr. Kino's words aren't truthful? How do we know the Audi's aren't playing games with regards to how efficient their diesels are? There's always two sides, so don't fault one.

What confused me where the bsfc figures he quoted. In the article he claimed a bsfc efficiency figure that is too high for his Toyotas (better than anything I have seen for any gasoline engine) The next part was the most reasonable when he said that a gasoline engine isn't ever going to reach a level of efficiency that Toyota forecasts is necessary. However there is no explanation about how the forecast is calculated. He then went on to say that diesels should be given even less fuel and that they should strive for a 45% bsfc figure because according to their calculations the 2014 diesels can hit the performance target with a 42.5 % peak efficiency value that diesels have already achieved for 20 years (this part is true there is a 1992 Audi diesel listed in wiki as having 42.5% peak efficiency) However going from 42.5 to 45 for a passenger diesel is just as hard/impossible as the improvement that he quoted that was necessary for a gasoline engine. It just sounded like an argument made with only partially correct figures or only partially revealed truths.

Fun fact: Googling this kind of stuff I discovered that the Mazda LeMans rotary consumes 44% more fuel per hp at its most effficient point than modern diesels do at thier most efficient point.

[TF110]

So basically he was saying let the diesels try to achieve something out of reach since you want the petrols to achieve something out of reach. Sounds logical even if the numbers are fudged.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by TF110

So basically he was saying let the diesels try to achieve something out of reach since you want the petrols to achieve something out of reach. Sounds logical even if the numbers are fudged.

"He explained that the current petrol engines have a fuel efficiency rating of around 38 per cent, but will have to reach 41.5 to race in 2014"

Technically there is no set limit of efficiency required to race, you just come up with an engine that gives you the most power with the amount of fuel given. Certainly you are not going to be competitive with an inefficient engine and you will be down on power. But gasoline engines get more fuel than diesels to play with. Perhaps Toyota wants so much extra fuel so that their current V8 fits the new rules?

Anyways let's rather talk about how much hp the 2014 engines will be making? I am going to guess 475-500 for the engine not counting the hybrid system.

[Pandamasque]

....

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

"He explained that the current petrol engines have a fuel efficiency rating of around 38 per cent, but will have to reach 41.5 to race in 2014"

Technically there is no set limit of efficiency required to race, you just come up with an engine that gives you the most power with the amount of fuel given. Certainly you are not going to be competitive with an inefficient engine and you will be down on power. But gasoline engines get more fuel than diesels to play with. Perhaps Toyota wants so much extra fuel so that their current V8 fits the new rules?

Anyways let's rather talk about how much hp the 2014 engines will be making? I am going to guess 475-500 for the engine not counting the hybrid system.

me too think that new engine power will be around 500HP, maybe the engines used in manufacter's cars will be a bit more powerfull + hybrid boost. In 4 years we passed from the rumored 800hp of 908HDi 2010 to almost the half.

[Machin]

yes indeed, but add in the 2014 weight reduction + more aero development and the cars will be doing roughly the same lap times, so no need to worry.

[alexkiller8]

trust in 2014 the cars maybe will run with similiar actual laptimes but forget to see again a 3.19 in next future.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by TF110

We don't know for sure, but from what Toyota has said, they feel they'd only be 2-3 seconds faster than the HPDs/Rebellions. So 3:28's maybe a 3:27, compared to what the Ultra Audi was capable of; 3:24's and lower.

Thursday qualifying at Le Mans saw Toyota in the 3:24's too.

[Articus]

The Toyota ran a 3:24 in cold conditions on tires built for a Peugeot. If people dont think that car is as quick as the Audi they have another thing coming haha.

[TF110]

The Rebellion Toyota's without hybrid power came to 3:29's during the race. TS030 Toyota's without hybrid power as said by their team would be 2-3 seconds faster (their words not mine). So 3:26's maybe? Audi Ultra's did 3:24's and 3:23's. That's the real gap you have to see, but we probably won't because factory Toyota's without hybrid won't happen.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by TF110

The Rebellion Toyota's without hybrid power came to 3:29's during the race. TS030 Toyota's without hybrid power as said by their team would be 2-3 seconds faster (their words not mine). So 3:26's maybe? Audi Ultra's did 3:24's and 3:23's. That's the real gap you have to see, but we probably won't because factory Toyota's without hybrid won't happen.

the hybrid system gave to ts030 an acceleration much better than the r18etron one, is hard to believe that a car may run faster with a worse acceleration in a track where to reach faster the max speed is a critical aspect.
BTW in my opinion is useless to compare the lola rebellion with toyota! the RV8K share the same basic structure of the TS030 engine but the differences are too much.

[TF110]

You misread. They said without hybrid power they'd be 2-3 seconds faster than the Rebellion Toyota. Not 2-3 seconds faster than the TS030.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

In 4 years we passed from the rumored 800hp of 908HDi 2010 to almost the half.

One could say that the diesels were never supposed to have that much power in the first place, though.

[joeb]

Looks like the 2014 regs are close to be finalized.
http://app.racer.com/mobile/pages/ap...ticleid=251958

[trickyd]

"He also confirmed that the 2013 WEC calendar will be announced by the end of September, and "will include some exciting new venues."

Oh great, more pointless desert races then, and Moscow.

[busdegnao]

i hope that ACO will be wise enough to don't schueld an indian race in november/december, risking to have a 10-15 entry list if season's titles have been already won. Ratel style.

[Machin]

I'm not really a big fan of performance balancing.. I want to see the car that can make the best use of it resources win... so here's another take on the petrol vs. diesel fuel allocation debate... if the fuel allocation were based on the total life cycle Carbon footprint of each type of fuel (I.e. inclusive of the production emissions), and the Diesels have the same 3.99 litres/lap that is currently proposed, then the petrol engines should be allocated 4.80 litres/lap to ensure the same carbon footprint for each type of car... not too far away from what the ACO are currently proposing...

Fuel Life cycle analysis data from: "Carbon and energy balances for a
range of biofuels options" Elsayed, MA, Matthews, R, Mortimer,
ND. Study for DTI URN 03/836 (petrol = 2600g CO2/litre , diesel = 3128g CO2/litre).

[Gingers4Justice]

Where will the 2014 regs leave Judd in LMP1?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Where will the 2014 regs leave Judd in LMP1?

In theory, the 2014 regs mean that the GV5 and GV5.5 are once again legal, but not sure how the engine behaves with a fuel flow restrictor instead of air restrictors.

[The Badger]

Thats up to Judd I feel , thay havent exactly set the track alight this year have they .

Quote from another thread :

Minoru Hayashi comments about WEC on his twitter.
Q. Minoru-san, does Dome S102.5 participate in the WEC Fuji round ?
A. Probably we do not participate. Since Judd engine is powerless, participating is meaningless.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Thats up to Judd I feel , thay havent exactly set the track alight this year have they .

They are also struggling big time in Indycar...

I don't know, maybe we have been focusing too much on the dire chassis situation in P1 lately and ignored how bad things look for privateers engine-wise.