Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged again)

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by racer69

- Anyone thinking a unified series is going to provide bumper grids full of sponsor's is dreaming. A combined series would be highly unlikely to field 30 cars to start with. A unified series would see OWRS stop backing the however many teams they back now, and the likes of AGR, Ganassi and Rahal-Letterman would probably knock off a car each. It will take a while for sponsors to get confidence back in Open-Wheel racing.

You made some other interesting points, which I might comment on tomorrow, but for now:

I've been saying this for a while, and I think it's a very important point, although perhaps not for the exact reasons you give. A team such as Cheever is unlikely to hold onto its Red Bull sponsorship if it continues running no better than 10th; what chance will they have of convincing Red Bull of their marketing value if they are 15th or 20th? OWRSFare would end and the top teams might contract their entries, but the biggest deal is that the smaller teams would lose publicity and marketing potential, at least in the short-term. They would be getting less of the championship's combiend attention than before, and would need the combined series to be a lot bigger than either individual series for there to be value in them sticking around.

[Kicking-back]

A 24-26 car unified series would still be preferable to two series with 18 and 21 respectively.

[mac]

Exactly. Teams come and go in the healthiest of series'. If one or two smaller teams fall by the wayside in order to have around 25 cars in one series so be it.

We do not live in an ideal world where everyone must survive and everyone must be looked after. Teams will disappear whether there is reconcilliation or not.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mac

Exactly. Teams come and go in the healthiest of series'. If one or two smaller teams fall by the wayside in order to have around 25 cars in one series so be it.

We do not live in an ideal world where everyone must survive and everyone must be looked after. Teams will disappear whether there is reconcilliation or not.

We already have 22 cars in the IRL, all sponsored except AJ, so I'm not for giving up the store for just a couple of more.

Reunification will not cure many of the biggest problems in open wheel racing - like for one, it's expensive. And as long as it is expensive, we will have pay drivers coming in and out of the sport, which will kill off stability and fan interest. NASCAR has that, and it's what makes them so successful. Fans know that year in and year out, there team and drivers will be there.

[mac]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

Reunification will not cure many of the biggest problems in open wheel racing - like for one, it's expensive. And as long as it is expensive, we will have pay drivers coming in and out of the sport, which will kill off stability and fan interest.

Whether there is reunification or not, it is always going to be expensive. I maintain that part of the reason for that expense is the environment (with two separate series and confusion amongst the punters) in which we are operating.

Reunification won't solve all of the financial issues and it certainly won't make the sport inexpensive. But I cannot foresee a situation where it will make things more expensive.

Originally Posted by GP Racer

NASCAR has that, and it's what makes them so successful. Fans know that year in and year out, there team and drivers will be there.

Stability right?

Is there not a greater chance of a stable series with one united front, as opposed to two brawling and fighting series'?

The reason NASCAR has stability over OW at the moment is the fact that it is one united entity where everyone is pulling in the same direction, while OW is ...... ah, can someone tell me what OW is doing again?

[jock25]

Given that the latest talk is spurred on by the chance to create common regulations for 2007, there is scope to put a lid to some extent on costs. A while back Tim N had some interesting comments on that, perhaps he could dig them out since I have forgotten...

On the subject of smaller teams being lost in the amalgamation, I would imagine any lost revenue from having to compete with more teams and ergo not being as competitive would be offset by the potential for teams (and therefore their sponsors) to gain exposure to a larger combined TV and spectator audiences.

From experience I know that sports sponsors are looking for coverage and access to a particular target market in the first instance, and sporting success is mostly regarded as an added bonus. Therefore one Indycar series, with no battles for audiences and spectators would be a far more compelling propositions (especially if technical regulations had reduced the cost of competing to some extent).

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mac

The reason NASCAR has stability over OW at the moment is the fact that it is one united entity where everyone is pulling in the same direction, while OW is ...... ah, can someone tell me what OW is doing again?

In the end, I hope your right mac, and unification will bring open wheel racing back to the top of the racing world here. I just happen to think it is much more complicated than just bringing back a CART-like series and it will be just like 1990 all over again. Alot has changed since those days.

I also feel that the IRL that I have come to know and be a fan of will be gone, and any resulting series will look much like CART did. The CART teams, along with their fans and there mentality will most definetly dominate any new series, and that sort of worries me. Most things IRL will not survive. I liked TG's original vision and what it stood for, and I believed it could work. It was long overdue and needed in American open wheel racing. However its plain to see that TG has abandoned that vision himself, which is probably a signal in itself that his attitude is softening towards reunification.

Well, if TG is ready to unify, I guess I better be...

[mac]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

I also feel that the IRL that I have come to know and be a fan of will be gone, and any resulting series will look much like CART did.

So will the Champ Car series that many people have grown to love. It is about compromise ...... taking the best bits of both series and creating something special.

Surely, as a racing fan that excites you?

Originally Posted by GP Racer

The CART teams, along with their fans and there mentality will most definetly dominate any new series, and that sort of worries me. Most things IRL will not survive.

I don't know about that. I would suggest that AGR and Penske would probably be the most dominant teams.

I think a lot of IRL things would survive.

Originally Posted by GP Racer

I liked TG's original vision and what it stood for, and I believed it could work. It was long overdue and needed in American open wheel racing. However its plain to see that TG has abandoned that vision himself, which is probably a signal in itself that his attitude is softening towards reunification.

As you acknowledge yourself, that vision is long gone. As they say in Australia, it's fish and chip wrapping.

[Kicking-back]

Simple facts here - one series is better than two - and certainly better than none at all, which is what we'll end up with if the present nonsense and infighting continues.

[JohnSSC]

Based on what is posted on the forums at times (and this is NOT directed at any one individual!!!) I am reminded of two people I know who were engaged in a bitter divorce.

Ten years later they are still engaged in this whole "tit for tat" sort of thing where each of them are either dredging up past sins or dreaming up new ways to annoy the other. It is almost like they are still unhappily married (and no, this is not my situation either).

Same here at times. For whatever reasons this all happened. There is not a thing any of can do that will change that. The only thing we can advocate for is one series that will grow open wheel in North America in a positive way with an intense focus on having (once again) a competitive, exciting product at successful venues.

Through this whole drama there have been no winners and only one real loser: fans of open wheel racing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Based on what is posted on the forums at times (and this is NOT directed at any one individual!!!) I am reminded of two people I know who were engaged in a bitter divorce.

Ten years later they are still engaged in this whole "tit for tat" sort of thing where each of them are either dredging up past sins or dreaming up new ways to annoy the other. It is almost like they are still unhappily married (and no, this is not my situation either).

Same here at times. For whatever reasons this all happened. There is not a thing any of can do that will change that. The only thing we can advocate for is one series that will grow open wheel in North America in a positive way with an intense focus on having (once again) a competitive, exciting product at successful venues.

Through this whole drama there have been no winners and only one real loser: fans of open wheel racing.

I'd agree mostly. The only issue I have is revisionist history and the portrayal of the catalyst of this whole deal as a victim.

We all know there is no way to change the past and we can only look to the future. I think reunification talk is actually holding everyone back. Reunification is like a beautiful woman that one desires and instead of being cool and confident, you overdo it and talk and fawn over her so much you push her away. Just like, let it happen. Champcar needs to do it's thing and the IRL theirs. I think the war will be won by default with no shots fired. CART barely survived when the manufacturers pulled the big dollars out, but this time when they pull the pin on the IRL, that may be the end.

We know that Chevy is gone, Toyota is not happy and mostly likely will bail and Honda is unpleased enough to hold a meeting with champcar bosses right in the middle of Indy week. It is a fact that these manufacturers write big checks, and anyone with logic can see that those days are going to be ending. So factoring that and a minimal $8 mil budget per car in the IRL and declining tv ratings(0.0 Motegi, etc.), declining attendance(8376 at Phoenix, etc.), Indy becoming the "barely two weeks of may" from the "month of may", Marlboro leaving(they subsidize attendance with free tickets), and with the Hulman family exerting pressure on Tony to halt the heavy financial losses(It is estimated the IRL has cost the Hulmans at least $250 million with nothing to show for their investment) and so on, it's seems the IRL is in a downward business spiral and if teams start following the manufacturer dollars into sportscar racing and NASCAR, the IRL is going to evaporate pretty darn fast. And it's hard to see just who would fill that void in the IRL.

If you look across the aisle to Champcar, it is clear from the actions alone of KK and GF that these guys are in for the long haul. And they've not gone out and blown money on worthless crap. Cosworth and Long Beach were two savvy purchases. Champcar little by little is gaining momentum and they are gradually developing a business model that can work for the teams, the fans and promoters.

So knowing champcar isn't going anywhere and with the IRL facing some traumatic decisions here shortly, I just say watch and wait.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If you look across the aisle to Champcar, it is clear from the actions alone of KK and GF that these guys are in for the long haul. And they've not gone out and blown money on worthless crap. Cosworth and Long Beach were two savvy purchases. Champcar little by little is gaining momentum and they are gradually developing a business model that can work for the teams, the fans and promoters.

So knowing champcar isn't going anywhere and with the IRL facing some traumatic decisions here shortly, I just say watch and wait.

Champ Car, at least in its current form, would never, ever be able to come back to the popularity it once enjoyed in the late 80's, early 90's and even late 90's. Far, far from all open-wheel fans, drivers and even sponsors are interested in the current fascination OWRS has for street circuits and global expansion.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

If you look across the aisle to Champcar, it is clear from the actions alone of KK and GF that these guys are in for the long haul. And they've not gone out and blown money on worthless crap. Cosworth and Long Beach were two savvy purchases. Champcar little by little is gaining momentum and they are gradually developing a business model that can work for the teams, the fans and promoters.

So knowing champcar isn't going anywhere and with the IRL facing some traumatic decisions here shortly, I just say watch and wait.

Ummm, your kidding right?

I think Monterey was just televised on tape-delay at 11PM, on a Sunday night on Speed channel. Everyone agreed that the Long Beach race production was a complete joke on NBC. KK also wants out of the U.S., unwilling to put in the hard work of building back the fan base of American open wheel racing, and taking on any race, anywhere that is willing to pay. China, S Korea, wow, I'm so excited I can hardly stand it! No way I want him involved in any new series here. He obviously is clueless as to what the American audience wants to see. No ovals, no thanks. Sponsorship is terrible, the cars are dated, and the driver manipulation by team/series owner's is reprehensible. Want to drive a Champ Car, bring cash.

So as you can see, there is much to complain about in both series.

Originally Posted by mac

So will the Champ Car series that many people have grown to love. It is about compromise ...... taking the best bits of both series and creating something special.

Surely, as a racing fan that excites you?

CC is gone mac, and this whole OWRS thing is a poor imitation IMO. I really don't think anyone will miss that series if it grows into one, except maybe mountainstar!

And actually, as a race fan, the IRL already excites me just the way it is!

[Bob Riebe]

There are only four tracks that could survive without IRL or OWRS, they are Indianapolis, Phoenix, Milwaukee, and possibly Long Beach.

The engine suppliers are more important to the posters on this site than they are to any track that really wants to put on a race.
Indy especially, if things became dire could simply allow any past engines or chassis it chooses, same for Phoenix and Milwaukee.

When push comes to shove, Indianapolis is the key-link, everyone else can follow or get the hell out of the way.

Unless either series puts an end tot he semi-spec. series crap and opens it up to what made USAC and early CART great, they are going to be a pot boiled down and scorching.

Bob

[norman-normal]

Brave talk Bob, GP, now tell me about Mr Georges "vision" again you know american drivers! american engines! oval speedways. ...What happened? is this "mission accomplished"?

[jock25]

The unified series needs to be entirely North American, no exceptions (not even Surfers and especially not Motegi) from the outset and focus on that. I've said before that the focus must be to draw higher numbers of spectators, TV audiences and sponsors to the sport each year - no plans for international expansion, no thoughts about 'competing with F1' and no trips halfway around the globe at a behest of a manufacturer.

Both sides has something of value to the end product, a unified series. CC can bring a strong Canadian and Mexican element, with the Cosworth link potentially and the better known, original 'Indycar' venues like Long Beach. Plus of course some very good teams and drivers.

The IRL needs to bring across Indy, the Dallara/Panoz chassi supply, the major & minor teams and drivers, plus a handpicked selection of the best ovals (this would be problematic as there are LOTS!).

All of this is clearly what frustrates people like us and those competing within the sport. Combined there is much to offer but seperately they continue to do a dis-service to the history of the sport.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

Ummm, your kidding right?

KK also wants out of the U.S., unwilling to put in the hard work of building back the fan base of American open wheel racing, and taking on any race, anywhere that is willing to pay.

I dont think that is fair. KK has been quoted as saying that atleast half the CCWS races will be in North America. He and GF have just spent 15 million on an american race so I dont think he is looking to leave America.

I think he is being a realist, in the current climate Open wheel racing relying on America doesn't make financial sense, CART went broke and they are looking for $$$ to ensure a future for teams.

Originally Posted by GP Racer

Want to drive a Champ Car, bring cash.

I think thats a motorsport problem

Originally Posted by GP Racer

So as you can see, there is much to complain about in both series.

Exactly, comprimising is what is going to be needed. Both Championships aren't that strong.

Originally Posted by GP Racer

CC is gone mac, and this whole OWRS thing is a poor imitation IMO. I really don't think anyone will miss that series if it grows into one, except maybe mountainstar!

Its still called the CCWS so I cant agree its gone. Also isn't all Open Wheel racing in America a poor representation or imitation of what it once was.
Many people who tun up to CCWS races and I for one will miss the CCWS if/when a unified series is formed, but will be more excited by a unified championship.

Originally Posted by GP Racer

And actually, as a race fan, the IRL already excites me just the way it is!

Haven't you also expressed your dissapointment with the way the IRL is going (race venue, manufacturer involvement) at the moment.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Brave talk Bob, GP, now tell me about Mr Georges "vision" again you know american drivers! american engines! oval speedways. ...What happened? is this "mission accomplished"?

George is a hypocrite, he is his own best friend and worst enemy.

IRL has become CART 2 and unless George does something it will end up like CART 1, with the exception it has Indy to use to try again.

Bob

[macdaddy]

In a commentary on SpeedTV's website, David Phillips offers yet another reason why it would be great if the two series could unite.

Bruno Junqueira.

Foyt#4, Roth, et al, would have never made the show in the first place.
"Bump Day" would have seen "bumps".

[sgw2]

MacDaddy,

CCWS is now largely irrelevant. The 6.6 TV ratings (40% gain over last year) mean the race will see more advertising next year and that means more quality entries.

From an IRL standpoint all CCWS can offer is a few better back markers. But even that is iffy, as teams that run in the 8th and 9th row tend to run out of funding for the next season. On the circuits they have, only Klakhoven's newly purchased LBGP has any value, but not enough for Tony George to lift a finger to make a bid, if only to up the cost for Kalkhoven.

That says it all. The IRL has the right package for an Ameroican open wheeled series. It has Indy, some good new venues like Kansas City and Texas, as well as premier road circuits like Watkins Glen and Sears Point. It has created young American stars like Patrick and Rice to showcase. The logical plan of action is to grow staying focused on the US market. This last Indy 500 established IRL as the top series.

it is time OWRS/CCWS decided what the heck they are about and go do it. Kevin Kalkhoven should stop paying Robin Miller and David Philips to write articles that beg Tony George for an audience. Get on with life. The IRL isn't interested in second rate wares.

[macdaddy]

Uh, yeah. Okay.

[mac]

Originally Posted by sgw2

That says it all. The IRL has the right package for an Ameroican open wheeled series.

Then what's been going wrong?

The 500 was an undoubted success - however, it is one race in a championship that they need to make work. At the next race, they will still have the same issues as they had in April.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by mac

Then what's been going wrong?

A lack of visibility has played a big role IMO.

The on-track product that the IRL has been putting on for years, has been the best in racing IMO. The problem has been to get people in the seats and in front of their screens to watch. We needed a spark to do that, and Danica was that spark. It also goes to show you, just how important having a genuine American story that grab's people is to this type of racing. I think it's safe to say that a decent amount of the people that watched the 500, will be around to see Texas, and that race should really be the hook. Hopefully, this Indy 500 is the beginning of better things to come.

ABC, ESPN, and the IRL themselves have done a terrible job of marketing this series over the years. Maybe now they will see a reason to...

[rustyfan]

Nothing new, really, but anyway, the following was included in an article at the IndyStar.com website:

Originally Posted by IndyStar.com

Honda chief hopeful

Busy schedules on both sides have kept the principals in the Indy Racing League and Champ Car World Series away from the negotiating table, but a stakeholder in the possible reunification of open-wheel racing remains optimistic.

Robert Clarke, general manager of Honda Performance Development, has met with leaders on both sides and believes the climate is right to get something done.

"Very much so," Clarke said. "Since the split (10 years ago), it's never been more possible than it is today."

With the IRL futures of Honda and Toyota very much up in the air after their contracts expire next year, Clarke said he has delivered no ultimatums and his message to both has been one of cooperation.

"What we've told them is that we are willing to be flexible with our objectives if it helps the two series come together," Clarke said. "It's not our style to threaten, but we've let them know how we feel."

[jock25]

It is good to know though rustyfan.

The climate must be right for unification. Both sides have positive elements that when combined would be complimentary and very potent, especially with Indy going through something of a reinvigoration in the US media. And with commercial partners like Honda making it clear they want a single series, there are now surely a greater number of commercial incentives and jusitification for unification.