Is this now a dying championship?

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Now that is what you call see the world through rose colored glasses.

George is killing the IRL, and worst INDY, but even at most CC boards, they see that CC is just as sick and going nowhere.
More interest, by whom?

Open wheel will be dead in a few years if something is not done.
INDY can survive as an outlaw race, but then George is amazing in making a sow's ear, out of a silk purse.
Bob

i undertsnad your point and i agree, but i think more interest as a few new teams, new drivers young talent, like graham rahal, etc. new car. i just think personally champ car is doing a better job at least of making the most of what they can do, and at least trying to make the series better, whilst i havnt really heard muhc from th IRL, except for a few losses.

the only things i see good for the IRL this year are more road courses, but what ever happened to the only ovals that george was baging on about? i just done get it.

my point being, chamop car are doing something, IRL TO MY KNOWELDGE are just letting their series die. which is a shame as i followed both and liked both.

[Alex Toropov]

Originally Posted by luke

Pro F1, Pro CART fans? Who do you think you are?

Single minded mentality?

Attack the post not the poster! Besides I'm neutral under all three categories.

I'm sorry if you can't see this, but you can not compare the old IRL Northern Lights series pre 2002ish to 1996 to the 1996 to 2002 CART grid.

CART Montoya, Franchitti, Tracy, Andretti, Moore, Vasser, Castroneves, de Ferran, Kanaan, al Unser Jr, Brack thick in talent all the way through the field.

IRL Ray, Dismore, Hamilton, Calkins, Scmidt, McGehee, Boat, Lazier, who?

I'm sorry its pretty obvious the IRL was more competitive 2003-2005 then pre 2001. Infact you can't compare it to the current grid.

Al Unser Jr and Kenny Brack were part of IRL field actually in 1996-2002 era (and both had pretty much the same level of success in both series during these years: Brack - among leaders in IRL, as well as CART, Unser - no more than midfielder).

The fact, that Ray, Hamilton and Lazier are not household names for you, doesn't mean, that they are hopeless dummies with zilch of talent in comparison to Montoya and Andretti.

You can go with the same attitude to, let's say, Australian V8 Supercars and wonder, who are these virtually unknown outside OZ&NZ Kellys, Winterbottoms and Brights, which are outpacing by country mile the guys like Max Wilson, Marcus Marshall (ex-ChampCar) and Paul Radisich (must be household name for any european Super Tourer fan). Heck, even mister Lowndes, who sucked big time in comparison to Montoya in F3k, is multiple champion there

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by stradlin21

have you noticed something here

the same champ car fan going on about the same old thing!, if you listened to him you'd think Champ Car was the most successful and biggest championship in the world!

we've heard it a million times before, your boring!

Probably should take another look if you think he is the only one doing this from either side or on either board.

[Kieran20]

Originally Posted by stradlin21

have you noticed something here

the same champ car fan going on about the same old thing!, if you listened to him you'd think Champ Car was the most successful and biggest championship in the world!

we've heard it a million times before, your boring!

go and watch your Champ Car and enjoy it, leave the rest alone

ive also noticed biased posts also from IRL fans, not only champ car fans

im getting quite bored of the whole thing, every thread turns out the same, it will end up getting closed if people cant just have a normal discussion because either fan cant accept some facts. my posts are only my opinion, im not saying they are facts, just what i think on the matter. im sure mnay other people feel the same

[luke]

Exactly I said my opinion which was fair and balanced hardly biased boring or bashing! Not every post is going to be the series is amazing. If you think that's bashing take a look in the CCWS forum where ever day for years un named members always post bad news and bashing and never anything positive or race related. I also don't appreciate noob attacks on me, if you have a problem with me go by pm. You've basically wrecked this thread.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

On using old/new chassis: for me, using state of the art/non-aging/atleast something quite recent is a part of high level motor racing for me. By this I don't mean that there should be a new chassis every season, but I expect there to have been some developement on it from one season to another (whether it is by a team or a manufacteror). Is this not the case with IRL?

[Alex Toropov]

Judging by Dallara website, there is restricted chassis development including, bodywork (frozen for the season) and monocoque (frozen for three years).
So major teams must do some R&D work in off-season to stay competitive, I reckon.

[cptkablamo]

Anyone who says there wasn't talent in either series is blind. Both series had and has some great drivers and that has always been the case...

As for the formula, unfortunately all open wheel and if we are to believe the worst case scenarios, even F1 are going to a single make formula, which is a pity. And the cars need to be visually different more often CCWS waited what 6 years or something, IRL is on what 4 years or so, this needs to be less, just new body work to give a visual appeal and something extra to write about.

Would that (a control formula) have happened without a split, I don't know, but for the moment its what we need for both series to stablize and survive. To bash either series now would be fruitless because they are both in their lower ebbs of existance. Both need support and I don't think that bashing them will help OWR, no matter which side of the fence they are on. Neither series has the reputation at the moment to take full responsability for OWR in the USA. If one folds the other will win but I doubt they will be taken seriously for 2007 in that lead role. NASCAR will still rule. If they merge, then yes a base will be there to be built upon to grow, but they need to build rather than inherit I say...

We need to support this instead of this futile civil war that is happening now...and lets keep this discussion Kosher so it can be kept open, because good ones like this are so rare...

[JohnSSC]

Look. We could go on (and it is interesting actually) about guys like Lazier and how good he is and guys like Brayton who some seem to have forgotten just how quick he could be.

I will still refer to the Planning for Failure Manual on this one: Both series have turned what used to be the pinnacle of open wheel racing in this country into really nothing more than really fast Formula Continentals or Formula Super Vee (thanks for reminding me of those Bob!). Now those were two really great series who, in their day developed some terrific driving talent. Bottom line though is that ANY spec series does that and as good as these two series once were they became SCCA Club Racing classes (although FSV is gone, I believe).

IRL/CC have become a spec series. It is irrelevant who is driving or how new the spec chassis du jour is. When the whole bag of marbles can be won simply because a team like NH is felt to have the best "book" on each track (see past threads where, due to NH's superior engineering notes they were felt to have the advantage out of the box at each track) then you have problems.

Is this what the fans or even the teams want? Yes, we want close racing but heck, why not put everyone in 125cc racing Karts then? What made open wheel great was the Triple Crown and what made that great is that everyone could, under the rules, develop their own car from scratch, buy a car from Lola or whatever (or Penske) and plop in numerous engine combinations.

I mean, heck, we hear how great the new Panoz is in CC, but somehow it is forgotten that the Panoz made for the IRL is made by: Panoz!! So CC is better because they have a "new" Panoz, but IRL is hurting because they have an "old" Panoz. How much of the development of the "new" Panoz do you think came from the development of the "old" Panoz? If ever there were a case to be made for partisan reasoning, this is it! I mean, I have been giggling about this for sometime as Panoz is held up as this terrific racing car manufacturer, but only when they build CC cars!

But I digress. Bob nailed it right on the head: every open wheel series in this country has tanked. These two are showing no sign of doing any differently.

[Alex Toropov]

Does IRL have any rule restrictions currently in regards of new chassis manufacturers coming in (Lola, Dome, whoever else)?

ChampCar is, if I understand correctly, truely spec-series from 2007 (no new chassis allowed in next few years)...

[norman-normal]

[QUOTE=Alex Toropov]Does IRL have any rule restrictions currently in regards of new chassis manufacturers coming in (Lola, Dome, whoever else)?

Alex, they are likely to in the future (unless Mother puts a padlock on the purse). the IRL has become Champ Car imitators: foreign drivers, foreign engines, road races, street races, spec engines. What has happened to ultra conservative American dream?....

Answer: lack of original ideas.

[Kieran20]

[quote=norman-normal]

Originally Posted by Alex Toropov

Does IRL have any rule restrictions currently in regards of new chassis manufacturers coming in (Lola, Dome, whoever else)?

Alex, they are likely to in the future (unless Mother puts a padlock on the purse). the IRL has become Champ Car imitators: foreign drivers, foreign engines, road races, street races, spec engines. What has happened to ultra conservative American dream?....

Answer: lack of original ideas.

that is one thing that i dont admire about the series.

they even had to use champ cars (indy cars) from 1995 to get their series going, everythin that was in champ car/indy car went to IRL, even the theme music!!

i found it quite lame.

[Leighton Irwin]

I believe IRL have approved chassis manufacturers being Dallara and Panoz. It is just that everyone is using Dallara. G Force also used to be approved. Unless things have changed tubs need to be replaced fairly regularly. Older tubs go to show cars or to the smaller teams that appear only at Indy. Carbon fibre probably lasts longer but tubs sooner or later become flexi flyers.
Wealthier teams will replace tubs and other components more often.

[Alex Toropov]

[QUOTE=norman-normal]

Originally Posted by Alex Toropov

Does IRL have any rule restrictions currently in regards of new chassis manufacturers coming in (Lola, Dome, whoever else)?

Alex, they are likely to in the future (unless Mother puts a padlock on the purse). the IRL has become Champ Car imitators: foreign drivers, foreign engines, road races, street races, spec engines. What has happened to ultra conservative American dream?....

Answer: lack of original ideas.

well, I don't really care about what will happen to IRL as sanctioning body, it's their business, not mine

but I have to admit, as JohnSSC said, ChampCar is no longer the place to go to see racers master all disciplines of open wheel racing: short oval, superspeedway, road and street racing, while IRL is this place currently, and for me it is the most appealing factor in american formula racing, probably because CART series used to be the same, when I saw their racing for the first time on TV (in 96).

I don't know, who (if any) will survive in this "battle royal", but for me it would be very sad, if we'll end up with ovals-only or circuits-only type of series.

[Alex Toropov]

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

I believe IRL have approved chassis manufacturers being Dallara and Panoz. It is just that everyone is using Dallara. G Force also used to be approved.

Maybe, you are referring to Falcon?
If my memory serves me good, Panoz chassis is rebadged/reconstructed G Force one.

Originally Posted by Leighton Irwin

Unless things have changed tubs need to be replaced fairly regularly. Older tubs go to show cars or to the smaller teams that appear only at Indy. Carbon fibre probably lasts longer but tubs sooner or later become flexi flyers.
Wealthier teams will replace tubs and other components more often.

There was an article on Champ Car website about Lolas, which said, that only 8 cars were produced in 3 years (2003-05) and instead of changing tubs teams were just sending them to Lola Cars to repair...

"The most damage that gets done to the tubs is under the bottom at the front from running over the curbs," Duff says. "It's the sort of thing where you usually just keep going. We take care of it and at the end of the year we have to do some more work to get it ready for the following year. The honeycomb around the pedals tends to wear away. We send them back to Lola and they put in a new front section of floor."

must be the same in IRL, I reckon

[norman-normal]

You fellas keep changing your story to fit current IRL fashion. Five years ago John considered going around in circles was getting somewhere fast, the only way to go! ROAD RACING ? UN AMERICAN!;
Americans have contributed virtually nothing to auto racing for more than 60 years, with the single exception of Drag Racing.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

You fellas keep changing your story to fit current IRL fashion. Five years ago John considered going around in circles was getting somewhere fast, the only way to go! ROAD RACING ? UN AMERICAN!;
Americans have contributed virtually nothing to auto racing for more than 60 years, with the single exception of Drag Racing.

That statement is either obtuse or vacuous, probably both.
Either way it is rather droll.

[JohnSSC]

Nothing I could add to your comment Bob!

[norman-normal]

I'm not going to say: put up or shut up, but how about some facts? can't you handle the truth??

[luke]

I have to agree with your comments Norman. There are many hypocritical people who change their mind on vision to the liking. I remember Norm when you once said to me, why bother? I'll second that.

[norman-normal]

Your right Luke, this is getting silly.

[Bob Riebe]

(not) normal-normal wrote:

Americans have contributed virtually nothing to auto racing for more than 60 years, with the single exception of Drag Racing.

You verbally flatulated with the above empty statement, that is contrary to history, the anti-thesis of your rhetoric is the accepted norm. You are the one who has to prove otherwise, but cheap empty rhetoric is easy, as you have proven.

Bob

[paul-collins]

Sadly, the posters have not been able to refrain from attacking other posters.