The Indian Grand Prix

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There are two ways the Indian GP might get torpedoed. 1. A natural disaster within the region 2. A government so hostile to the GP that they will obstruct things at customs and in other ways. I don't foresee either happening but if the GP gets sunk, it'll be for those reasons.

There's a third. With all the pollution there GODZILLA might appear and destroy everything... I guess that's what he's talking about.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Beetle

You don't seem to understand my point.

no, i do, and i feel strongly about the same things you do but in the end, the only way to bring progress (or rather, the western type of progress) to these countries is show them the things it brings.

but i guess you need to get out there in that big wide world, use that passport that's burning a hole in your pocket and see things in perspective. people you're pitying won't even understand what you're pitying them for.

i'm actually having a similar personal debate about whether to go to russia to see some racing this year and in the end, after stepping back from it last year, i'm going to do it this year. because i don't understand the country, and i want to see it for myself and understand it a little more so i can develop my view and work out whether my view of the country is anywhere near reality.

sometimes, you have to put aside your own hesitations and just go and experience and learn.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Bononi

There's a third. With all the pollution there GODZILLA might appear and destroy everything... I guess that's what he's talking about.

No, no. Bernie would negotiate with Godzilla. Give him a cash settlement and free tickets into the Paddock Club.

[JeremySmith]

It is indeed a **** hole...

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by werner

That is indeed an important poit. Does the air in New Delhi pose a threat to the drivers health? In Beijing they shut down heavy industrie for months to bring down pollution for the Olimpics. Offcourse the Olimpics are a much larger event vs 1 GP, but still...

All air in India poses a threat to human health. Its that bad. I have lived there an know the dust, dirt, and pollution has an effect on your respiratory system and you cannot get away from it.

You don't have to be in Delhi. Any one of twenty cities will make a difference to your health.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It is indeed a **** hole...

Well, I wouldn't go THAT far...

There's still plenty of culture I admire there, but would I like to go...? No. Russia; I can understand bella's hesitation, but if our family had the money, we'd probably go.

[garcon]

I could come up with all kinds of legitimate moral reasons why F1 shouldn't have a race in the USA, but I won't because I don't believe the F1 calendar should have anything whatsoever to do with subjective moral sensitivities.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Except that wasn't the case for many teams, manufacturers, sponsors, drivers, and World Governments for a particular Grand Prix in 1985...

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Well, I wouldn't go THAT far...

There's still plenty of culture I admire there, but would I like to go...? No. Russia; I can understand bella's hesitation, but if our family had the money, we'd probably go.

Don't get be wrong I would love to visit India it's be high on my list for years, but the air quality is just shocking..

[Bononi]

Well, if we have to start a war against who pollutes most the air, then F1 should be gone from this list : List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions

Let's be honest, nobody's helping.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

My point exactly. Unless we go to these places and learn about their culture, all we know is what the media and interested parties tell us. Trying to apply "Western" attitudes to oriental or eastern cultures is frankly useless.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Oh for gawd's sake. Bahrain, New Delhi, worse things happen in New York or London (I was in Holborn 7 July 2005). Get a life people.

First, I should have said this in my earlier post. I personally have no problem with India hosting a F1 race.

I “generally” agree with Mr. Mallet’s comment above about the fallacy of trying to impose Western attitudes upon the world. But I would argue it differently. We should not be trying to make the rest of the world a clone of Western culture and traditions. The world is never going to be a smooth homogeneous pudding. It will and should have lumps.

My attempt at paraphrasing Mr. Mallet’s second comment above (which he has twice posted, so I assume he feels pretty strongly about it), comes out as “Rape happens” with a bit of "Nothing to see here move along" sprinkled in. I still find that argument absolutely appalling!

I believe in the concept that there are some universal rights and wrongs. I think there is little room for justification of violence and unequal treatment based upon things such as gender, race, social stratification, etc. Have some of these issues become embedded in specific cultures? Absolutely. But culture is not static. Culture and tradition can and does change. I also don’t think this is me trying to apply Western attitudes or morals on other. Ask anyone regardless of where they live if they are OK with being raped. I suspect the results will be universally "No".

Again, I have no problem with an Indian GP. But the way people are choosing to defending it is just mind-blowing. I would focus more on topics such as how the organizers of the race operate (are they thugs, are they using the race for political means, etc.), safety of team personnel, impact on the community (did they forcibly evict people from their homes with no recourse to build the track) and other things such as that and less on problems with the "host society" as a whole. If anything, the recent news items in India speak to “safety of team personnel” more than anything and I am sure the teams would be able to address this.

Richard

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Let's be honest, nobody's helping.

Yes, but at least some countries do recognize that there is actually a problem.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

First, I should have said this in my earlier post. I personally have no problem with India hosting a F1 race.

I “generally” agree with Mr. Mallet’s comment above about the fallacy of trying to impose Western attitudes upon the world. But I would argue it differently. We should not be trying to make the rest of the world a clone of Western culture and traditions. The world is never going to be a smooth homogeneous pudding. It will and should have lumps.

My attempt at paraphrasing Mr. Mallet’s second comment above (which he has twice posted, so I assume he feels pretty strongly about it), comes out as “Rape happens” with a bit of "Nothing to see here move along" sprinkled in. I still find that argument absolutely appalling!

I believe in the concept that there are some universal rights and wrongs. I think there is little room for justification of violence and unequal treatment based upon things such as gender, race, social stratification, etc. Have some of these issues become embedded in specific cultures? Absolutely. But culture is not static. Culture and tradition can and does change. I also don’t think this is me trying to apply Western attitudes or morals on other. Ask anyone regardless of where they live if they are OK with being raped. I suspect the results will be universally "No".

Again, I have no problem with an Indian GP. But the way people are choosing to defending it is just mind-blowing. I would focus more on topics such as how the organizers of the race operate (are they thugs, are they using the race for political means, etc.), safety of team personnel, impact on the community (did they forcibly evict people from their homes with no recourse to build the track) and other things such as that and less on problems with the "host society" as a whole. If anything, the recent news items in India speak to “safety of team personnel” more than anything and I am sure the teams would be able to address this.

Richard

Originally Posted by Marbot

Yes, but at least some countries do recognize that there is actually a problem.

These post pretty much some up my point. And in response to the bold, my name is not Adolf Hitler. I believe in a culturally and ethnically diverse world and the thought of everyone looking the same, acting the same, genetically the same, frightens me near to insanity. Why else would I have read 1984 and Brave New World five times each? Well, I do like books, but still...

We need diversity in this world, but we can't, within the minimal lines of safety, look past what's staring us right in the face regarding the Indian GP: danger, inconvenience, a crumbling society, horrendous pollution, and a society that does not fit with Western culture at all. Formula 1 started out as a Western sport, not an Eastern sport. Why are most of the drivers in, say, F1, the WEC, the WTCC, the WRC, IndyCar, etc., of Western heritage? Because racing was made in Europe and America.

I know that's a statement that's bound to offend someone, but the world of motorsport should not be held responsible to bend and warp itself unnaturally to eastern cultures just because of financial reasons. Unfortunately, that's the way it is now, but should we support it? If the French Grand Prix, the Russian GP, the Argentinian GP, the Mexican GP, even the Thai GP, were able to come to fruition now, then of course we should drop the Indian GP for obvious reasons. I'm not an Eastern-hater, but a Western form of entertainment should, in my opinion, be forced to adopt Eastern standards. For instance, if we take the stance of "rape happens, get over it and get at life", then we would could just as easily be racing in Cairo, Egypt or Karachi, Pakistan, where money abounds, but safety (and common sense) is scarce. Not because these are notorious rape-towns or smog cities (although they both have a fair bit of each), but because of an extremely turbulent society of anarchy or a threat of terrorism.

I know all this buzz may make me sound America-centered and anthropocentric because I don't know of these other funky cultures, but let me tell you, I'm not. I love rich, diverse cultures, but some just aren't my cup of tea. But that doesn't mean I don't admire the pearls that occasionally emerge from a rough shell.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Why else would I have read 1984 and Brave New World five times each? Well, I do like books, but still...

Because you didn't unterstand them ??

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Because you didn't unterstand them ??

No, because I had to continually restore my faith that some people thought like I did. I find the subjects fascinating and had to read them again (plus I had to read them both once for school, and read Brave New World for a book report because I thought it was interesting).

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

All air in India poses a threat to human health. Its that bad. I have lived there an know the dust, dirt, and pollution has an effect on your respiratory system and you cannot get away from it.

You don't have to be in Delhi. Any one of twenty cities will make a difference to your health.

You are a bottle of weak sauce my friend I lived and worked in India for just over two years...no issue. The ESPN coverage of F1 was my biggest problem

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

You are a bottle of weak sauce my friend I lived and worked in India for just over two years...no issue. The ESPN coverage of F1 was my biggest problem

I never said I would leave because of the problem. I am not leaving either Nepal or India.
It made no difference to my daily practice.

I did not argue that the pollution was a reason not to be there or go there.

Awareness of a process and how it affects your physical well being is better than sticking your head in the sand and thinking the best way to deal with it is brave it out.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Beetle

We need diversity in this world,

that was a really interesting post. it says a lot about where you are in the world, and how you perceive it. thank you for sharing it. obviously i have a few points of beef with it though

india doesn't have a crumbling society, they have a different one. all of your perceptions are based on your exposure to the issues through the international media. you're perceiving it as crumbling because you're seeing reports about bad things. and that's all being reported because one really bad thing happened and the news agencies are following up with more and more reports. i think you need to understand how news reporting and the media works before you can start to promote what you've seen from it as the undisputable truth.

rape and violence against women happens all the time. literally. you're trying to use western society as an ideal yet there's horrible violence against women in every western country. and do you know what makes it far, FAR worse for it to be happening here? it's that we know better. as a society, we *know* that it hasn't been remotely ok to treat women as toys or slaves for decades. we know that it's wrong. and yet it continues, and we think we're doing something about it because we're trying to prosecute the perpetrators.

your question about asking any woman in the world whether she's ok with being raped... well... i think you're looking at it from the wrong direction. how about asking men what they think rape is. like i said in one of my earlier posts, *so many* men think it's ok to continue when a woman asks them to stop or says they'd rather not carry on. i'm not kidding. and you can call them out on it, tell them what they've done and they just don't think it's wrong.

even in the west many people think that a woman showing a lot of leg is "asking for it". how wrong is it that women have to reduce *their* chances of being a victim of rape? people think it's wrong that certain countries in the world want their women covered up because "men can't control themselves" yet really we think the same? that if a woman is walking back from a night out in a short skirt, she's "asking for it". wtf.

about the smog... air quality isn't so hot in the west either. take a look at your big cities - they might lack the smog but the air quality is still poor. the best way that we in the west can help them sort that out is by selling them and assisting them with modern, cleaner manufacturing and production methods.

keep asking questions, keep listening, and seeking answers. but i think you need to look right back at the beginning first. about what humans actually need to survive. find what you believe in. right now you're desperate to believe in something, but you're still only believing a story that's been sold to you by the media. remember that.

[Matt]

Remember everyone, OP isn't out of high school yet.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bella

your question about asking any woman in the world whether she's ok with being raped... well... i think you're looking at it from the wrong direction. how about asking men what they think rape is. like i said in one of my earlier posts, *so many* men think it's ok to continue when a woman asks them to stop or says they'd rather not carry on. i'm not kidding. and you can call them out on it, tell them what they've done and they just don't think it's wrong.

I think you were addressing the OP, but I think you are actually referring to the point I made in my post above (about a rape victims point of view regarding right vs. wrong). My post above was already pretty wordy so I didn't expand upon that point much, but you said it much better and I agree with your statement above 100%. It applies to many situations (outside of rape) and in many cultures.

Originally Posted by Matt

Remember everyone, OP isn't out of high school yet.

I am going to get smacked down for saying this, but are we attacking the poster or his posts?

Richard

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am going to get smacked down for saying this, but are we attacking the poster or his posts?

Good question.

I'm sure Matt was just asking people to bear the OP's age in mind before sticking the boot in too hard. And I would echo that, although I think this has prompted a good debate that has been fairly argued.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by garcon

Good question.

I'm sure Matt was just asking people to bear the OP's age in mind before sticking the boot in too hard. And I would echo that, although I think this has prompted a good debate that has been fairly argued.

I think you are right about Matt's comment. The other poster (Edit: Ohh, that post is now gone) didn't quite take it that way however! And I guess it couldn't hurt to toss out another forum rule (for myself as well)... Try not to take things personally!

Richard

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Try not to take things personally!

Richard

That is always a good rule, for all of us to follow.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

My attempt at paraphrasing Mr. Mallet’s second comment above (which he has twice posted, so I assume he feels pretty strongly about it), comes out as “Rape happens” with a bit of "Nothing to see here move along" sprinkled in. I still find that argument absolutely appalling!

Appalling or not, in the context of Formula 1 it has absolutely nothing to do with whether a race is undertaken or not. Ask me what my feelings are about rape/terrorism or any of the other nastiness in the world and I'll tell you.

But that is neither the context or the purpose of the thread. The question posed was in summary, "should the Indian GP go ahead because, in the OP's opinion the recent rape and the generally polluted atmosphere, should mean it is cancelled."

I don't think any of those things matter when discussing a Formula 1 race, the Commonwealth Games or any other sporting event. (World Cup in Qatar anyone?). The only thing that really matters is; are the facilities there; are the necessary safety precautions in place; and can the teams/participants get there?

If people want to link the national death toll from smoking, the road traffic state, or the fact that you are virtually guaranteed to get Delhi Belly then by all means link it to a reason not to go. I wouldn't.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by garcon

Good question.

I'm sure Matt was just asking people to bear the OP's age in mind before sticking the boot in too hard. And I would echo that, although I think this has prompted a good debate that has been fairly argued.

Stick the boot in as hard as you want, people! I'm used to it. But I don't take kindly to resorting to patronizing comments about how I am too young and thin-skinned to take and understand this nonsense. And why are you all so curious about my age?

I think I am a fairly well-educated human being for my age. I generally hold firm in my beliefs and I find it unbelievable that this thread was taken to such a personal level as an attack against my age, intelligence, or knowledge (or at least that's how I perceived it, I should add). My opinion - age allows people to become set in their ways and not open to change or ideas that point in a different direction.

Back on subject - I just thought of another issue. Poverty. Doesn't that reflect badly on Formula 1 as an organization? When fans go to the track, they see slums all the way down the highway, past Noida, and close to the entrance of the track. Isn't that something that reflects poorly on the sport?