[Team] McLaren - can they compete?

[knighty]

It has to be said Hondas approach to F1 has been shambolic......I personally know several ex Mercedes powertrain engineers that were poached by Ferrari and now work in Italy on the Ferrari F1 engine and hybrid system.......this is how you succeed in F1: poach your rivals key staff - simple.......this is Hondas down-fall, cultural differences, for the record, I have nothing against the Japanese, I find them lovely people to work with, but I do find they are incredibly regimented in their working principles.

it seems beneath Hondas cultural honour to do this......I'm sorry but Gilles Simon is nobody and knows nothing about hybrid systems or turbocharged engines, he is from a gone era of NA V8 and V10 engines, I believe he was the guy pushing the axial turbine, and look what that did.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by knighty

But who would McLaren use next year.......they cannot consider Merc or Renault viable options....

Depends - if Mercedes ditch their team (as Eddie Jordan seems to think will happen after 2018) and return to being an engine supplier only then that would be ideal for McLaren. They'd effectively be pushing to be the 'works' Mercedes team again.

Originally Posted by knighty

I can still imagine, that behind the secnes Mclaren will be trying to entice a premium brand into the sport, then walk into Ilmor to handle the R&D side.......someone like Jagual-Land-Rover (JLR) would fit the bill perfectly.......as financing their own engine deal will end in tears I'm quite sure.

They've just had their fingers burned with that sort of 'start-up' engine deal - even if they go to Ilmor (badged as whatever) it's still a gamble. Will they be any better off (especially short term)?

Originally Posted by knighty

McLaren-Renault or McLaren-Infiniti sounds quite smart......

The Renault is currently the weakest option of possible replacements (ignoring a 'new' manufacturer coming in). I can't see them wanting to go for that.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Depends - if Mercedes ditch their team (as Eddie Jordan seems to think will happen after 2018) and return to being an engine supplier only then that would be ideal for McLaren. They'd effectively be pushing to be the 'works' Mercedes team again.



They've just had their fingers burned with that sort of 'start-up' engine deal - even if they go to Ilmor (badged as whatever) it's still a gamble. Will they be any better off (especially short term)?



The Renault is currently the weakest option of possible replacements (ignoring a 'new' manufacturer coming in). I can't see them wanting to go for that.

I think that this is the most likely outcome. As far as I'm aware they should have already lodged their chosen PU supplier with the FIA for next season, so I think McLaren will have to keep the Honda unit for next year. Then if the much rumoured withdrawal of the Mercedes team later (haven't PETRONAS publicly doubted being able to continue their sponsorship for much longer?), McLaren becoming the 'Official Works Partner' of Mercedes would sound ideal.

[knighty]

McLaren-Audi???.....not this old chestnut again ......but never say never

http://www.autosport.com/premium/fea...tle-mans-plans

but true to their word, now Bernie has gone, Audi may enter F1???....

[wolfhound]

If McLaren were to change engine supplier I suspect they would need to do it for next season or wait until the new rules come in 2020 (or is that 2021?) as running a different power unit for one season would not really make sense. On the other hand running anything other than a Honda would seem like a bonus.
At this stage would Honda be not better to dust down a few of their 30 year old V6's and adapt them to the current rules, I seem to remember they were powerful fuel efficient and RELIABLE.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by knighty

It has to be said Hondas approach to F1 has been shambolic......

I would generally agree to that.

Originally Posted by knighty

I personally know several ex Mercedes powertrain engineers that were poached by Ferrari and now work in Italy on the Ferrari F1 engine and hybrid system.......this is how you succeed in F1: poach your rivals key staff - simple.......this is Hondas down-fall, cultural differences, for the record, I have nothing against the Japanese, I find them lovely people to work with, but I do find they are incredibly regimented in their working principles.

it seems beneath Hondas cultural honour to do this......I'm sorry but Gilles Simon is nobody and knows nothing about hybrid systems or turbocharged engines, he is from a gone era of NA V8 and V10 engines, I believe he was the guy pushing the axial turbine, and look what that did.

So, IMHO your point is trying to have it both ways. Saying they are not using outside help, but at the same time complaining about the outside help.

They clearly have reached outside of the team early on (Simon and maybe others). They have been trying to poach resources from other teams (publicly reported including options for working out of the center in UK and/or Japan). The questions is when did they start trying to poach? They are likely guilty of many things, but per your comments, the only one that applies is choosing poorly (Simon) when it comes to consultants.

I am not saying there are not some cultural issues going on (either Japanese, Honda, or both), but another potential issue that may make it hard to be successful is the language barrier plus geographic differences. So when trying to poach, it is likely a much harder sell for maybe a typical engineer who is based out of Europe. It would be interesting to know how successful they have been with their poaching.

From my reading (and I could be wrong, because nobody agrees on what is going on) my opinion as to what happened is...

Honda is hampered by many things. Geography, language, corporate and/or society cultural differences among others. When it comes down to this particular 2017 engine project there were probably other issues that made it a trainwreck. When did they actually start work? Did the have the right resources? Was it an achievable goal, or did they screw it up due to poor management? Likely some or all of those combined.

I suspect poor management of the effort is to blame. It's relatively well known that they focused on single cylinder R&D engines for quite awhile. I have seen disagreements between people that I think are truly knowledgeable about the need (or not) for single cylinder test engines in this scenario. I am not an engine designer, but I can imagine using them early on to prove out concepts would be useful. But it seems that Honda spent too much time doing those experiments before they moves to a full v6 test engine. They also may have relied too much on simulations to try to expose issues in the design process vs. allocating enough time to find those on physical test engines. And/or they may just have done a bad job in their simulation and physical testing. The end result was an engine that seems to have a variety of issues that impacts performance and reliability. Stuff that should have been caught and addressed a long time ago.

I am reading that the potential Canadian update while "large" was not a significant rethink on the design, but rather a large collection of minor improvements. That the idea was that maybe 1+1+1+.... = some large number. Maybe internal testing showed that in reality it all didn't add up to enough to make it worth deploying. And that word is a larger rework of the entire top end of the engine is in the works (redesign and not just tweaks). And that work is not ready. They are discovering and solving problems now that should have been done months ago.

To Zak Brown's comments about Honda being "lost". I don't think we can know the truth on that. I do suspect there has been a lot of wishful thinking (or lack of honesty) from both sides of that partnership and poor communication. But probably more on the Honda side.

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

All this talk is interesting and it certainly looks like the writing is on the wall to the ending of the McLaren-Honda partnership.
Surely though, didn't teams need to register their PU supplier for next year by the end of last month (May)? I thought that this was why the Sauber-Honda deal was announced so early?

Given they are likely locked into Honda for 2018, the only reason I can think they are slagging Honda publicly is that McLaren feels they are not getting through via their direct communication channel (are they talking directly to the Honda board via the press?) That they are at the point in which public embarrassment of Honda is their only option to get Honda to do more. And this clearly implies that they think Honda could be doing more than they are already trying to do.

Right now McLaren sounds like RBR when they were slagging Renault. Only those inside Renault can say if that type of public embarrassment from a partner actually helped or hindered them in the long run.

Richard

[S griffin]

Well this season was now or never for them and they were looking good after regular top tens last season, but now it's like they've forgotten everything from last season. What a waste

[chillibowl]

Alonso seems to be willing to give Honda until September so after the summer break....which in hindsight was probably always a more realistic time frame for major improvement.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...summer-915635/

maybe a function of me using the motorsports.com site more and more for my news but (a little tin foil hat time) i feel like they are playing a different sort of game in the media then RB did with Renault. Zak Brown and RB both have large media companies to use to spread their message but whereas RB were heavy handed with Renault, Mclaren seem to be employing a more nuanced approach...legitimate criticism while still promoting the Honda brand.

no doubt Alonso at Indy contributed greatly to this but overall i feel like Honda have still benefited more for their partnership with Mclaren, at least publicly, then the 'public embarrassment' caused by their useless F1 program would suggest.

anyways, im inclined to think along the lines of Alonso that Honda still has time to sort things out.

cultural issues may play a part, but if culture is important then so too should history be taken into account and Honda have too much of it to be written off.

[chunterer]

But it seems if they do imorove by Spa it might be too late to keep Alonso another year?
I am sure he is alredy sounding out the possible seats for next year.

Noticed Lewis being very deferential to Fernando in the conference.

Is it still beyond chance to see them pair up again?

[F1Guy]

Zak Brown has made some comments on McLarens 2018 plans. (BBC Sport)

Zak Brown: "The plan right now is to have the Honda in the back of the car, but some things need to happen between now and then for us to have the confidence we can be at the front of the field next year.

"We need to get competitive and show regular signs that we are getting competitive.

"Right now, we're not racing well, not finishing races and that can't happen any more.

"We are starting to work on the 2018 car so we need to make any decisions that impact 2018 by the summer break. Something needs to change. If you keep doing the same thing, you are going to get the same result. Maybe take some risks, do things they wouldn't normally do. Can't keep doing the same thing and expect things to change."

"We have a plan B, a Plan C. We have some plans."

Looks like McLaren have, or will soon reach that deadline that I mentioned HERE.

I reckon this is what will happen in the near future:

1) Honda will announce that they are ending their partnership with McLaren. Not the other way around as most think will happen.

2) An agreement between FOM and all the teams will allow McLaren to use Mercedes engines from 2018, as a result of force majeure clause.

3) Fernando Alonso will be offered a 11th hour contract to drive for another team. He will not accept, and leave F1.

4) Sauber/Honda will be a regular podium finisher in 2018.

5) We will see Alonso once again.

[F1Guy]

Eric Boullier has had his say on that fork Zak Brown found on the road.

Eric Boullier: "We have never been so close to that fork. The performance went backwards. We have the support from our executive committee to sort this out because we can't go on like this – going backwards.

"Like any professional organisation you sit down and say 'we have to speak about targets, speak about commitment' – and we can't miss targets constantly. That is where the fork on the road comes from."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/i...fork-road.html

[Tourer]

From Nigel Roebuck's Fifth Column this week:

I can think of nothing in motor racing I would like to see more.

Close on the heels of it, though, would be something other than a Honda engine in the back of a McLaren. In Canada there was yet more farce, Alonso effectively missing practice one and half of practice two, then retiring two laps from the flag when he and the team looked set to score their first championship point of 2017.

On Thursday Fernando, whom McLaren is desperate to keep, said he would stay if the team was winning by September, and patently that ain't going to happen.

At the same time Zak Brown said that the Japanese company seemed 'lost', and I don't believe that word was a slip of the tongue.

There had been hopes that Honda's updated engine would make its debut in Canada, but it was decided that it was not ready, and I wonder if this was the final straw.

All the beleaguered Yusuke Hasegawa could say was "It's unfortunate that I can't convince them that we are going in the right direction."

Yes, but when, Hasegawa-San, when?

In 1967, John Surtees said his biggest frustration was trying to introduce an element of urgency into Honda's way of doing things. Fifty years on, little appears to have changed.

Will Alonso drive a McLaren in 2018? I don't know, but - barring an Act of God - it won't be a McLaren-Honda.

Strong statement from someone who was a big admirer of Honda in their previous McLaren Honda days. To me it just shows how much Honda are lost this time out and how little they seem to be gaining from their past history and experience.

[Paradise City]

Well, even Minardi in their heyday would be able to ferret out a point or two during a season -- and that was when points only went to sixth. Ok, attrition was a far bigger thing back then but I think the point as to how Mclaren have slumped is still broadly salient.

I think Alonso may go back to Renault. Honda may shower Sauber with compo money and simply leave the sport. Or get Mugen to maintain the plant for Sauber if that organisation is still fit to do that. One other alternative is to buy out Sauber as they did with BAR.

Honda have actually proved themselves as chassis builders -- theirs won under a Brawn banner. They just can't seem to build F1 engines anymore.

[S griffin]

I saw that Fifth Column too and it is clear Honda aren't the force they once were. Even the Honda Earth Cars were less of a embarrassment than this. At least it was slow, but more reliable

[Tourer]

To me it's a great shame. With the racing pedigree that Honda has, you'd think that whilst it might take a little while to sort out a power plant under new regulations, they would at least be there or thereabouts once sorted.

To date, they've been the only Japanese manufacturer that has succeeded in F1 but they now seem to be heading the way of an abject failure.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Zak Brown has made some comments on McLarens 2018 plans. (BBC Sport)



Looks like McLaren have, or will soon reach that deadline that I mentioned HERE.

I reckon this is what will happen in the near future:

1) Honda will announce that they are ending their partnership with McLaren. Not the other way around as most think will happen.

2) An agreement between FOM and all the teams will allow McLaren to use Mercedes engines from 2018, as a result of force majeure clause.

3) Fernando Alonso will be offered a 11th hour contract to drive for another team. He will not accept, and leave F1.

4) Sauber/Honda will be a regular podium finisher in 2018.

5) We will see Alonso once again.

To your fifth point: Alonso's best bet is to stay with McLaren. Unless he is offered a ride with ferrari, Mercedes or maybe red bull, he's in a chassis he has consistently complimented, which shows the team is too notch. I think McLaren should run a full season IndyCar for him rather than just the 500 with a clause in his contract that as soon as their f1 car comes good, he can jump back into it, unless he's rather stay in IndyCar at that point. Just hire a retread for his car that they can drop when he comes back.

[GTRMagic]

Is there a chance a Mercedes engine could find its way into a McLaren after the summer break?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is there a chance a Mercedes engine could find its way into a McLaren after the summer break?

This has been suggested a number of times and would be an excellent answer to the problems (and may well tie in with Alonso's comments about waiting until after the summer break before making any decisions about next year). Unfortunately, the pessimist in me can only see problems:
1. The car would need to be totally re-engineered and probably require a different transmission in order to change the power unit. (Not insurmountable for someone like McLaren, but not a simple task either).
2. I wouldn't have thought Mercedes would be very happy having their engines so easily scrutinised by another manufacturer. If I remember correctly when McLaren moved to Honda initially Mercedes made sure that their equipment was well out of the way before Honda personnel arrived.
3. Surely there would have to be unanimous agreement from all of the other teams to allow McLaren to change PU supplier mid-season, (don't teams have to nominate their supplier before the end of May the previous year?). I really can't see all of the teams agreeing to this...
Having said all of that, I would love to see it happen and find out just how good a car the McLaren is!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tourer

To me it's a great shame. With the racing pedigree that Honda has, you'd think that whilst it might take a little while to sort out a power plant under new regulations, they would at least be there or thereabouts once sorted.

To date, they've been the only Japanese manufacturer that has succeeded in F1 but they now seem to be heading the way of an abject failure.

This is their third season and one would have thought, they'd have sorted the PU out by now but no. With a racing pedigree like Honda's, I don't for a minute think this is technologically beyond them so what is the issue?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is there a chance a Mercedes engine could find its way into a McLaren after the summer break?

Won't having Mercedes engines ensure they're second fiddle to the factory Mercedes team?

[ASCII Man]

After the last 3 years years they can but dream to play second fiddle to Mercedes.
I mean, it'd be a massive improvement over their current situation in any case.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This is their third season and one would have thought, they'd have sorted the PU out by now but no. With a racing pedigree like Honda's, I don't for a minute think this is technologically beyond them so what is the issue?

Agree - you'd think that they'd never been racing before the way this has dragged on and on, even after they had the opportunity to look at what everyone else was doing before they ran their own PU.

Maybe the wise heads within Honda from the earlier engine programs have moved on or been ignored, or possibly cleaned out after their own team didn't meet expectations?

Seems to me that during the first season of the current engine program, it would have been obvious to Honda that there were major issues and that radical steps were needed but they just seem to have kept plodding on doing things "the Honda way". Their most successful engine programs did things in a more "race team" way with operations in the UK, maybe there is a lesson there too.

I don't think that the "token" engine update system is helping (never been a fan of it myself) but clearly their problems go way beyond that.

Without some kind of "Eureka!" moment it's hard to see how they'll still be with McLaren next year and without some radical change to how they operate, it's hard to see them being in F1 at all beyond that.

[Paradise City]

They'd have undermine their "good car" to cram in the customer Merc in the car designed for the Honda for the rest of this year. I don't think there's any mileage in that kind of hassle and expense.

If they could bring their 2018 forward and race it just before the end of this season -- that'd be a remarkable testing head start. But that's academic because they haven't nearly progressed that far.

The cost of getting rid of free engines to buy some expensive customers is one heck of a sobering experience. And the customer 'plants are highly unlikely of the quality to beat the works cars, so they are still destined for a patchy future.

It's mighty a tight bind they are in and there isn't a clear pathway out of there. The partnership with Honda threatens to undermine the entire future of Mclaren.

[F1Guy]

Honda's F1 engine program, as it is currently, would be a dream job for an engineer involved with the powertrain of Mercedes, or Ferrari. The likes of Andy Cowell would the ultimate candidate for that role at Honda F1. But there's no way Mercedes would let him go. And Andy Cowell is not interested anyway. But for any one of the "junior" powertrain engineers currently working with Mercedes or Ferrari, it would be a dream opportunity, and he/she would be a valuable asset to Honda F1 powertrains ATM.

Hypothetically speaking, let's say a junior powertrain engineer from either Mercedes or Ferrari was offered a job at Honda F1 Japan for a large sum of money. A year or so later the Honda engine is almost on par with the other three. Another year later it is equal or even beating Mercedes and Ferrari. That said junior engineer's reputation is now sky high, and he/she is now in high demand. It's a scenario that happens all the time in F1. Be it in powertrain, aerodynamics, suspension, etc. etc. It's how the ball roles and the engineers move up the scale. They take the knowledge they have of what works best at their old team and apply the same - or similar, at their new team. This has been the case for many a year.

When Honda's engine program began, Honda was not interested in recruiting powertrain engineers with the know how from other manufacturers. They did not seek out engineers as is what usually happens in F1. Honda was then, apparently, offered the very scenario mentioned above by Mercedes towards the end of 2016, and again at the beginning of this year. Mercedes was willing to let a junior powertrain engineer (or two) go to work with Honda in Japan, strictly on the power unit side of things. Honda apparently did not take up Mercedes offer.

A similar scenario happened in late 2014, when Ferrari, unlike Honda, actually sought to recruit powertrain engineers from Mercedes. Ferrari chased a few of the guys from Mercedes engine program, and did manage to get a signature (or two) for 2015. Mercedes did not block the engineer/s from leaving, and even let them go without any gardening leave, any restrictions, or signed agreements. I know there was talk in the F1 paddock about this time that this was somehow seen as 'best for the sport', and two of F1's old men were somehow involved. I know of a ex-junior Mercedes powertrain engineer who is now at Ferrari, and is no longer ranked as a "junior" engineer, and his (or hers) salary is almost double of what it was at Mercedes. It's just the way F1 works. And this is where Honda have failed to realise the reality of the sport. It's not like it's the first time Honda have been involved in F1, so it's really surprising that they still have not come to realise how things work. They have a very strange way of going about things.

In F1, experience, knowledge and the ability to apply that experience and knowledge at a rapid rate is crucial. Honda will get there, and I have no doubts they will be a power player one day. But right now it seems like it's just a dream. 'The Power of Dreams', as their slogan says. The dream has turned into a nightmare for McLaren, and it would be a big surprise to see 'McLaren - Powered by Honda' on their engine covers in 2018.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The cost of getting rid of free engines to buy some expensive customers is one heck of a sobering experience. And the customer 'plants are highly unlikely of the quality to beat the works cars, so they are still destined for a patchy future.

Mercedes have always said that they supply their customer teams with 100% works spec engines a few races after the works team have trailed them first. Last race in Canada, Force India and Williams raced with the works spec Mercedes engines that were introduced at Barcelona. Let's face it, Force India and Williams don't have the R&D budget of Mercedes to build a chassis that will take on the Mercedes. So Mercedes don't really have any reason to fear by supplying works spec engines to them is there? Don't think Force India or Williams would beat the Mercedes if Mercedes was to run a similar spec engine at 75%. The Mercedes chassis is light years ahead.

On the supplying of works spec engines, the only time I can remember Mercedes not supplying works spec engines to a customer is after McLaren announced their deal with Honda. After that announcement Mercedes did not provide any updated engines for McLaren.

Ferrari on the other hand have openly admitted that they don't supply 100% works spec engines to their customers. Even if the customer has absolutely no chance of beating the factory Ferrari team.