C-Type crash at Goodwood?

[DarrellB]

I have been to several incidents involving rolls with historic/vintage cars and each one has been on the tarmac, not such a soft landing as perhaps a gravel trap might offer. Rolls can happen anywhere though a gravel trap will have more of a tendancy to cause a car to roll if entered at the wrong angle.

[Stephen Green]

Thanks Simon, that's exactly what I meant.

On the subject of helmets I can understand drivers wanting to wear open faced helmets in order to be a close to the original drivers 'style' as possible, but times change and with that comes increased safety awareness. I would say that those drivers who do race with full face helmets but where they are highly decorated, do not 'look the part' so maybe a compromise would be a full face helmet in white or a colour as close to the original as possible?

Please don't think I'm trying to put down historic racing because nothing could be further from the truth. I adore marshalling for HSCC, Goodwood etc and love to see the cars being driven as they were designed to be.

With regard to rollover hops/bars, I believe it should be up to the organising club or the MSA to stipultae which events would require a rollbar. It will be a hard decision to come to I appreciate and one that will incur much debate. However you don't want to be injured and I feel that with the huge advances in safety since the cars were originally built, we need to look to make racing safer for all concerned without taking away the spectacle.

[ROBSL]

The difference between open and full helmets is the risk of losing your front teeth in a particular accident. With a full harness this risk is considerably reduced.
There was some time ago acompromise helmet on the market with a 1/2" round tube connecting across the chin. Does anyone know if they still exist and if so where to obtain.

Out of interest I raced open helmeted at Monaco in a 3 liter F1 last year and did not feel at much increased risk. It's all relative,
It is certainly a more exciting sensation in an open helmet.
Chacqu'un a son gout! Why legislate on everything?

[zefarelly]

Im having the same debate re open or not, I perferred open on a bike, but not for riding fast, in a tin top Im leaning towards open faced, for visibility, but am well aware a full is safer (glass, teeth, jaw . . . .) also the heat is a factor.

[D-Type]

Re: Open faced helmets
They look great, but safety must rule. Those who really race must wear full face helmets, but I feel it's an unnecessary imposition on those who essentially parade their cars at the back of the field. (Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting them down: they are as much a part of historic racing as the hard triers).

Leave the choice to the individual maybe with published guidelines or recommendations.

Re: Roll cages and safety harnesses
Very difficult. Fitting a cage would destroy the look of a vintage Bentley or a 250F but wouldn't really affect most 50's sports cars. But the stiffening effect of the cage could totally transform the handling and make the car dangerous. I suppose that again it's a split between "racers" and "tourers"

Possibly a rule saying roll cage and harness, except when exempted and apply a sensible exemption policy.

It goes without saying that a harness without a cage should always be banned.

Re: Gravel traps
I don't really understand the dynamics involved. As I see it, a modern car on slicks can "aquaplane" across the gravel if going straight, but digs in and slows itself down if it is turning or spinning. An historic with its narrower tyres and higher c/g is a different situation. If it goes in straight it will sink in and slow itself. If it goes in sideways, the wheels dig in and she flips. This appears to be what happened to Dod Shead at Brands as well as to Rupert Avon.
In discussion at Goodwood, someone suggested that maybe the gravel should be made shallower nearer the track and get progressively deeper. This might be ok for historics but probably wouldn't work for modern cars.

This is one for the circuit design experts

[Steve Tarrant]

Taken from Meridian TV from last night:-

"Racing driver 'critical' after Goodwood crash
By Chris Barrett
Sep 8, 2003, 16:25

The racing driver, badly injured in a crash at the Goodwood revival meeting in Sussex, remains in a critical but stable condition in hospital.

Rupert Avon, from Steyning in West Sussex, was driving a C type Jaguar during a practice session when his car spun off the track on Friday afternoon.

Mr Avon sustained head and chest injuries. He is being trated in the neurological unit of Southampton General Hospital. "

[ascarracinguk]

i know it sounds strange but sometimes less safety precautions can be good....remember the ferrari that flipped there a few years ago....if he had been wearing a seat belt the car would have landed on him and well....

[Tim Falce]

I drive a replica D-type and have a full cage, yes it spoils the lines, but it is my neck and head so looks come second. Re. open helmets, I have been hit by large stones and even a low flying nut, and I wouldnt risk wearing just an open face helmet.

[Stephen Green]

Gravel traps are an interesting topic. Can I say that in most cases it's not feasible to have a graduated depth of gravel unless you eat into spectator banking and therefore move the cars further from the spectator.

Gravels effectiveness depends on whether you enter it in a straight line or at an angle. If you watch Clios and Fiesta racing you will see that when they enter a gravel trap sideways, they flip (I know this from experience at Brands). I'm not a fan of the tarmac run off areas at some tracks (Silverstone) as I believe in wet conditions it is far less effective than gravel. There doesn't seem to be one solution that meets all the requirements.

My earlier comments regarding open faced helmets were directed at those incidents where the car (open seater) flips into the gravel trap thus causing damage to the face or neck. In the case of tin tops I don't think the arguement holds water.

[Teletubby]

I think you'll find that Rupert Avon was wearing a full face helmet.

[PaulSands]

I think we got onto the helmet issue in a round about sort of way...my understanding of Ruperts injuries is that they bear no relation to what kind of helmet he may or may not have been wearing

[simon drabble]

The thought of digging down in gravel in an open car is sufficiently grim to make me wimp bolder moves on such corners!!Fortunately there are not too many of them. On the subject of skinny tyres I dont think many cars have ones more skinny than an Eleven!!

[Teletubby]

Ah, my apologies, I had misread and thought that the implication was that he was wearing an open face helmet.

[mcurtis26]

Some good news from goodwood.co.uk:

RUPERT AVON - LATEST NEWS

Racing driver Rupert Avon, who sustained head and chest injuries in an accident at the Goodwood Revival on Friday, is improving and in much better health.

[Stephen Green]

Thats fantastic news. I hope he makes a full and speedy recovery.

[andy_b]

I'm surprised no helmet manufacture has come up with a full face helmet that looks like an open face. Not idea, but you could easily spray the chin area for example on a white helmet with a dark visor, or a balaclava white colour (complete with sparco logo if you wanted) on a black helmet.

I knocked this up in couple of minutes, really quickly, but it doesnt look that bad.

[andy_b]

is 300 pixels too big. I cant remember

[JimW]

Roll cages and full face helmets made compulsory? I think that should be left to the driver. And yes, I do have sympathy for the idea that people ought to be responsible for their own safety. Of course balances have to be struck and the MSA needs to protect motorsport from the "its dangerous - ban it" brigade.

Assuming that drivers are legally competent adults, I am personally pretty relaxed about them taking the level of risk with which they are comfortable.

Myself, I'd be scared stiff and that's one reason why I've never thought about coming down off the bank and actually driving. Equally that is one of the things which makes me a bit apprehensive about young children racing. (The other thing is the parents but that is another story )

It is good news to hear that Rupert is making progress.

Regards

Jim

[Heebeegeetee]

Given that this is Goodwood we're talking about, which, apart from a number of sprints, only has historic racing, should they have gravel traps at all, there?

[rkshanahan]

Robs,
As to the rollover bar/seatbelt debate, I was curious what you thought of our solution on the 12C Alfa where we ran Jeff Kline with shoulder harnesses and no rollover bar. We had strong advice from a couple of crash safety experts on that one, but it always made me uncomfortable. On the other hand, I am very uncomfortable with the "classic" solution of no belts when you have no rollover bar.

Rob

[ROBSL]

Rob, I feel most uncomfortable about that one just as I do in the P25BRM where the situation is much better (less of the torso protruding).
The other solution is the (well tried!)lap strap only favoured by most of the '40's and '50's US oval racers.
I would be interested in the full details of the actual advice you received. Also can you hook Jeff into this debate?
My overall point on this particular aspect which is so fundamental, is that it is the driver, and only the driver who should make the ultimate decision. However there sould be as much information available in order that he (the driver) can consider these aspects very carefully for himself. Afterall, this is a very serious business.
I had the grandstand seat on the Nigel Corner Goodwood accident from the 3rd row and I think his chances of survival would have been pretty slim if he had been strapped in, as indeed would Hermann and Behra in P25 BRM's at Avus and Silverstone respectively?
These visions don't go away that easily in a drivers mind.
ROBSL

[Expat]

Re open vs. full face helmets for historic racing, last month testing my Brabham at Goodwood settled this once and for all for me.

That day I was using both an open faced and recently acquired full face helmet in alternate sesssions when a Porche GT 3 hit a medium sized bird (magpie or pigeon) at high speed on the pit straight and absolutely shattered and destroyed the entire windscreen and also dented the roof!

We all remarked at the injuires this might have caused to someone's face, in an open car, wearing an open face helmet.

[simon drabble]

he's supposed to salute it not pulverize it!!!! (having said that Magpie's are vermin!) I have always worn full face for the reasons outlined above but I agree with an earlier comment that its a personal thing even though we are in a nanny state!!

[zefarelly]

I know someone who broke a nose, and crashed causing other minor injuries . . . roding his scooter, hit a pigeon, and with a full face, visor open !

[PaulSands]

Also remember that Alan Stacey was killed in his Lotus 18 at Spa in 1960 through hitting a bird