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Old 17 Apr 2018, 11:28 (Ref:3816149)   #26
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I don't necessarily disagree but at the same time Hamilton's been out-qualified and out-raced in the last two rounds. And remember 2014 at Red Bull...
I'm not a fan off one of comparisons like that as it never tells the full story. DC beat Hakkinen in 2001. Hakkinen beat Schumacher in 98 and 99. Therefore DC is better than Schumacher. And Rosberg beat Schumacher at Mercedes, therefore Rosberg is the greatest driver in the world, closely followed by David Coulthard.

That sentence is of course, barmy. But that's why I don't like these one-offs. Unless it's a sustained period (such as Vettel v Webber, or Schumacher v Barrichello) then it's very hard to draw a comparison. And especially in the first season of new rules, or a team shake up.
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Old 17 Apr 2018, 12:46 (Ref:3816166)   #27
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I'm not a fan off one of comparisons like that as it never tells the full story. DC beat Hakkinen in 2001. Hakkinen beat Schumacher in 98 and 99. Therefore DC is better than Schumacher. And Rosberg beat Schumacher at Mercedes, therefore Rosberg is the greatest driver in the world, closely followed by David Coulthard.



That sentence is of course, barmy. But that's why I don't like these one-offs. Unless it's a sustained period (such as Vettel v Webber, or Schumacher v Barrichello) then it's very hard to draw a comparison. And especially in the first season of new rules, or a team shake up.


Well said
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Old 17 Apr 2018, 13:24 (Ref:3816175)   #28
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I'm not a fan off one of comparisons like that as it never tells the full story. DC beat Hakkinen in 2001. Hakkinen beat Schumacher in 98 and 99. Therefore DC is better than Schumacher. And Rosberg beat Schumacher at Mercedes, therefore Rosberg is the greatest driver in the world, closely followed by David Coulthard.

That sentence is of course, barmy. But that's why I don't like these one-offs.
That's a very good logical point. You are highlighting the problem of taking a few results individually, and then inferring something about the whole, while ignoring the majority of the evidence such as the general statistics and all of the other convolutions that determine who is the best driver. It's a mistake in reasoning called, "slothful induction fallacy," where people make the mistake of focusing on the MINORITY evidence, and letting that evidence dictate their conclusion, and basically ignoring the proper conclusion the majority of the evidence is actually pointing to.

EXAMPLE: "Ted isn't clumsy, someone left an object on the floor and that is why he tripped." (but if there is a long history of clumsiness for Ted, for various reasons and the evidence is clearly damning, then this doesn't matter much)

Now I am not the most massive Hamilton fan but I am still a fan of his driving, and all of the evidence collectively shows us that he is exceptional as a driver and it could never be stated flippantly, that some other driver could beat him, as that would be to SURMISE that they could, without evidence of actually witnessing any beating.

Full marks for spotting it.

Disclaimer: I am not saying Hamilton can't be beaten, or there isn't someone who can. That's down to opinion, I just don't believe SURMISING that someone can, because they are also good drivers, is sufficient to prove it;

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Old 17 Apr 2018, 14:49 (Ref:3816197)   #29
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playing devils advocate a bit plus i enjoy supposition particularly when facts/comparisons are hard to come by!

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I don't necessarily disagree but at the same time Hamilton's been out-qualified and out-raced in the last two rounds. And remember 2014 at Red Bull...
we have seen what an unmotivated LH looks like and it is quite different then the LH we saw after the summer break in 2017. he is a streaky driver and one that probably needs to manufacture a little bit of controversy to help himself get motivated (skipping the London event last season for example after which he was mega).

we also saw him in an uncompetitive Mclaren where Button had the measure of him over the couple of seasons they were team mates. i have to think part of that was down to Button not being bothered by any manufactured controversy. Nico struggled with it but ultimately found a way to overcome it...then he retired cause LH is LH and life is too short.

obviously i dont know any of these guys so this is complete conjecture, but from what i have seen/my impression, DR strikes me as more unflappable then Bottas and thus more likely to replicate the success of Button and Nico as LH's team mate.

so i think the 2014 SV vs DR comparison is one with some merit. SV had just won 4 in a row and found the 2014 car wanting. its not surprising that he went through that season with a different level of motivation then he had in prior years and DR was able to take advantage of that.

so, if the 2019 Merc is not the best of the best, i do very much think this is a fair comparison to the 2014 RB season is a valid comparison.

im not going to say DR would beat (moonwalk) LH in the same car over the course of the season...the only real fact is that there is a reason why they need to run the races first.

but looking ahead to 2019...a LH vs DR pairing is really the one i want to see the most as i do think it would be a lot closer then some may think...and im a LH fan!

just straight opinion but i just get the sense that DR is ready to take the next step in his career and i dont feel the same about Bottas.
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Old 17 Apr 2018, 15:37 (Ref:3816205)   #30
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Lewis is a mercurial driver. I honestly believe that when he’s at the top of his game, he’s unbeatable, but sometimes he doesn’t seem to show up. Daniel is very, very good and I think would push Lewis hard at Mercedes. I couldn’t guess who would come out on top.
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Old 18 Apr 2018, 03:43 (Ref:3816288)   #31
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playing devils advocate a bit plus i enjoy supposition particularly when facts/comparisons are hard to come by!



we have seen what an unmotivated LH looks like and it is quite different then the LH we saw after the summer break in 2017. he is a streaky driver and one that probably needs to manufacture a little bit of controversy to help himself get motivated (skipping the London event last season for example after which he was mega).

we also saw him in an uncompetitive Mclaren where Button had the measure of him over the couple of seasons they were team mates. i have to think part of that was down to Button not being bothered by any manufactured controversy. Nico struggled with it but ultimately found a way to overcome it...then he retired cause LH is LH and life is too short.

obviously i dont know any of these guys so this is complete conjecture, but from what i have seen/my impression, DR strikes me as more unflappable then Bottas and thus more likely to replicate the success of Button and Nico as LH's team mate.

so i think the 2014 SV vs DR comparison is one with some merit. SV had just won 4 in a row and found the 2014 car wanting. its not surprising that he went through that season with a different level of motivation then he had in prior years and DR was able to take advantage of that.

so, if the 2019 Merc is not the best of the best, i do very much think this is a fair comparison to the 2014 RB season is a valid comparison.

im not going to say DR would beat (moonwalk) LH in the same car over the course of the season...the only real fact is that there is a reason why they need to run the races first.

but looking ahead to 2019...a LH vs DR pairing is really the one i want to see the most as i do think it would be a lot closer then some may think...and im a LH fan!

just straight opinion but i just get the sense that DR is ready to take the next step in his career and i dont feel the same about Bottas.
I think you’ve absolutely nailed it
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Old 18 Apr 2018, 09:38 (Ref:3816317)   #32
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Jenson didn't really dominate Lewis apart from 2011. Look at 2012, Button struggled more when the car was not to his liking, whereas Lewis always seemed to get the maximum out of it
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Old 19 Apr 2018, 01:50 (Ref:3816439)   #33
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It's going back a few years now so I have trouble really remembering, also because JB vs LH wasn't really the fight I was following, however I never really remember JB getting the better of LH at any time they were together. I know he scored a lot more points in 2011 and finished 2nd but yeah I can't remember LH struggling against him. I could be wrong though maybe he did. Was it 2012 when McLaren were having a lot of issues? I do remember LH would be fighting in the top 5, even the podium, while JB would be outside the top battling at the tail end of the mid pack. That must have been the early parts of 2012, but they sorted it by the last 1/3 of the season and JB was only 2 points behind in the end. Anyway my memory isn't qualified enough to comment haha.

Also wanted to point out that at Bahrain Lewis was faster than Bottas. Only 1 tenth separated them in quali, and despite Lewis started 9th was it, and gaining nothing at the start if I recall, he still finished only 6 sec behind Bottas. The gap was a lot bigger at one point, so Lewis was faster in the race.

Also, the area Vettel seemed to struggle against Ricciardo, was tyres. Dani was much better that year at getting the tyres to last while Seb would burn his up. Don't know why but there was never much written about the reason why Seb couldn't get them to last like Ricciardo could, which is weird because he's not the kind of driver to burn through tyres. He's better at it than Kimi in saving his tyres.
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Old 19 Apr 2018, 06:53 (Ref:3816459)   #34
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Don't forget also Lewis twice broke down when in the lead in 2012 and also got taken out when leading in Brazil by the Hulk.
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Old 19 Apr 2018, 14:40 (Ref:3816511)   #35
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It's going back a few years now so I have trouble really remembering, also because JB vs LH wasn't really the fight I was following, however I never really remember JB getting the better of LH at any time they were together. I know he scored a lot more points in 2011 and finished 2nd but yeah I can't remember LH struggling against him....
indeed.

poor wording on my part earlier. wasnt so much suggesting that JB was better or that he was regularly getting the better of LH...was more so just trying to say that LH does have, for lack of a better term, these little mini slumps that make him vulnerable to an opportunistic team mate . rather these moments where his team mate needs to maximize their points haul in order to keep pace with LH over the course of a season. easier said then done, but if you can do that then you can beat him.

JB, imo, did that. often securing wins which seemingly come out of no where...a trait i think DR has exhibited on a few occasions now (might even say that winning out of no where is a mark of a championship caliber driver) whereas, imo, Bottas has yet to show that.

Nico talking a bit about these momentary lapses from LH and how important it is to capitalize on them.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...lton-struggles

but as this is a thread about DR vs MV, there was this quote from DR the other day.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...y-win-f1-title

"It's a fun way to win, for sure," Ricciardo told Sky Sports. "I really feel like, I've said a few times, just give me the chance to be in a title hunt and I really believe I will take it. I feel like I can capitalize on opportunities and I guess that was a good example even with a fat lip I am still pretty fast and pretty good on a Sunday."

for sure your regular run of the mill 'give me a chance to win it' type quote but i do think his win in China proved he is ready to take the next step of his career.

whether that be with RB or not remains to be seen. so much depends on the car they put under you, but i do sincerely believe DR will be the next NEW WDC.

LH or SV will probably win it this year but DR will be the next new guy to get add his name to the list.
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Old 19 Apr 2018, 15:08 (Ref:3816515)   #36
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Points mean prizes. It is an irrefutable fact that the only people to beat Lewis over the balance of a season in the same team are JB and Rosberg.
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Old 20 Apr 2018, 09:10 (Ref:3816623)   #37
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I think Danny has proved at China that he is one not to be underestimated this season
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 14:23 (Ref:3818129)   #38
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Kvyat was sacked for less.
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 14:31 (Ref:3818131)   #39
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Well Baku was amusing... lol

The fine folks at Milton Keynes will certainly be miffed about the zero point score though.
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 14:37 (Ref:3818134)   #40
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Two #1 drivers in a team always results in things like this

Ask McLaren
Ask Mercedes
Ask Ferrari
Ask Red Bull

Why don't F1 teams learn from their mistakes?
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:18 (Ref:3818160)   #41
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Well, I guess when your drivers try the double dummy, logic suggests that you'll end up with two dummies..... To be honest, from the early laps, it was only a matter of time. Horner is going to have to do something, for sure.....
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:19 (Ref:3818161)   #42
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Kvyat was sacked for less.

Vettel and Webber did the same and were not sacked
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:24 (Ref:3818165)   #43
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Webber didn't deserve to be sacked and Vettel ruled the place then anyway......
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:39 (Ref:3818173)   #44
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I’m afraid to say that I think Ricciardo was at fault. Verstappen was maybe a bit naughty and moved around a bit, but there was no gap and Daniel was just carrying too much speed.
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:46 (Ref:3818177)   #45
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I’m afraid to say that I think Ricciardo was at fault. Verstappen was maybe a bit naughty and moved around a bit, but there was no gap and Daniel was just carrying too much speed.

when you see the outside view Max realy did not move that much, the onboard just makes it see that way because Daniel is
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 16:58 (Ref:3818178)   #46
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"It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident." ;-)
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 17:00 (Ref:3818179)   #47
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when you see the outside view Max realy did not move that much, the onboard just makes it see that way because Daniel is
https://twitter.com/F1/status/990635790660263936
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 17:59 (Ref:3818191)   #48
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I think the stewards and the team have this one right. Normally the guy behind takes the blame, but if your going to move around under braking, or even just before with late moves, then one day your going to get bitten. I also feel that Ricciardo would have made the corner, previous examples demonstrate that he tends to get that right.

I didn’t like Verstappen’s control earlier in the race when Ricciardo was on the outside. Ricciardo was very fair giving him lots of room. Something I don’t think he would have done if it wasn’t his team mate. And something Verstappen wasn’t prepared to do.

Still I don’t want to be too harsh on either as it was good racing and it was fun to watch. It is a shame it ended like that.
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 19:09 (Ref:3818211)   #49
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I feel they were both at fault having seen replays.... yes Max changed direction twice, but the final move to the left was not that pronounced. I believe Daniel may have misjudged his closing spped coupled to losing downforce and braking effect. Would be interesting to see telemetery from Max's car as to how early he braked. The speed Daniel hit him at was fairly high and also not just a clip. Had Max not moved left I am not convinced Danny would have missed him. It was as if Danny expected Max to keep covering the outside pass.

I think they were both at fault. 60>40 (Max 60)
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Old 29 Apr 2018, 19:38 (Ref:3818220)   #50
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Defending a corner like that with so much aggression, early in a race is not good racing for either of those involved let alone teamates. Yes , defend that hard in the latter stages of course. I thought moves like Verstappens banned anyway. Horner has a problem with both drivers being allowed to race but if one is faster than other then clearly let them go by, got to support the team and not the individual. Max needs to pull his head in and play the game.
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