[Tech Issue] VW are to consider F1 engine supply

[Marbot]

VW may supply teams with F1 engines from 2012. They also give reasons why they would only supply engines and not produce their own car.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80348

[VIVA GT]

All common sense comments from Hans.I must admit that I share his sentiments, that the major manufacturers should stick to engine supply, and leave proper 'racing teams' to design, build and run the cars.
Unfortunately they generally get greedy, want more exposure and credit for the results, so end up buying the 'racing team' so they can claim the result is a total [Insert manufacturers name here] success, but then bail out and close the team down when the going get's tough!

[Sodemo]

Let me guess, will they be bringing a TDi?

[jab]

The rules don't allow it

[Belatti]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

All common sense comments from Hans...

Except the global engine comment

[jab]

Worth remembering that Murphy the Bear reported back in September that Audi could possibly hook up with McLaren as early as 2011

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

All common sense comments from Hans.I must admit that I share his sentiments, that the major manufacturers should stick to engine supply, and leave proper 'racing teams' to design, build and run the cars.

I've always liked Hans Stuck and its so refreshing to hear such logic and common sense from somebody in his position at a manufacturer.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jab

The rules don't allow it

We don't know what they are yet.

Originally Posted by Belatti

Except the global engine comment

This is the way that things are heading with car manufacturers.

[Teretonga]

Stuck is simply being straight forward and honest about the value of F1 and what is realistic and practical.
The recent decade of 'Splurge' in F1 is more about the ego's in the board room than any real marketing value to the companies involved. Owning an F1 team in the manner that BMW, Ford, Toyota, Honda and the others have done is an indulgence, not a marketing investment. It only works if you can make it work, and thats the challenge mr Ghosn has to work over the next few weeks.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Belatti

Except the global engine comment

What's not to like about the global engine? It's a size and configuration which is very common in passenger engines, so there can be some connection between stuff in the manufacturer's line. I enjoy the variety of engines in sportscar racing, but F1 has decided to micromanage the engine specs, so why not do it this way?

[davyboy]

Thought its a different topic, one idea would be to have F1 use modified road car engines. A tuned 2 litre turbo would be capable of reliably developing 500bhp+ something perfectly adequate for the needs of Grand Prix racing. It would be great for marketing not only the cars but the brand... and properly policed... could be done very cheaply. The technology would always remain road relevant too.

Maybe VW have one eye on lobbying for something like this. After all they cleaned up in Formula 3 using a production derived power plant back in the 1980s.

[duke_toaster]

It depends what you mean by 500hp+ is, if you mean 500hp that's two thirds of current power levels and less than Formula Nippon. My back of a fag packet thought is 2500cc V6 turbos, the only issue being about not many being made now. A 2000cc I4 turbo could be an option but I'd rather it went further between rebuilds but keeping current power levels (~750hp).

[davyboy]

500bhp is absolutely fine if the grips modulated accordingly. Current cars have far too much downforce.

[duke_toaster]

If both power and downforce were to be cut significantly, the cars would be slower than GP2 machinery.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Thought its a different topic, one idea would be to have F1 use modified road car engines. A tuned 2 litre turbo would be capable of reliably developing 500bhp+ something perfectly adequate for the needs of Grand Prix racing. .

It depends of course what you mean by "modified road car engines" . The "stock block" used by the BMW for the 1.5 ltr. turbo era unit produced up to 1300bhp in grenade tune. The rather fascinated "curing process" of course helped.
Love to see the leading road engine technology developers give the oppotunity within an energy input/distance covered formula to provide engines for F1

[Marbot]

2 litre turbo! I think that the FIA were thinking along the lines of 1 litre turbos.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

2 litre turbo! I think that the FIA were thinking along the lines of 1 litre turbos.

Simplest thing to do so is morph Formula One into Superkarts... solves all the problems in one stroke.

[duke_toaster]

1000cc turbos putting out F1 power levels would probably not have the required reliability for cost reasons - and not reliable enough for them to be road relevant either.

At one point FOTA suggested 1800cc turbo V6s. I'm not an engine builder, and I don't know of any turbo V6s currently on the market at that size (Mitsubishi built a two litre one), but it would be a happy medium between 1000cc and 2000cc-2500cc.

[neiltb]

if the FIA 2L formula does happen then I would think F1 would have to be turbo to get the speeds up, racecar engineering had an article about it a couple of months ago, 2L inline 4's for all.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Thought its a different topic, one idea would be to have F1 use modified road car engines. A tuned 2 litre turbo would be capable of reliably developing 500bhp+ something perfectly adequate for the needs of Grand Prix racing. It would be great for marketing not only the cars but the brand... and properly policed... could be done very cheaply. The technology would always remain road relevant too.

Maybe VW have one eye on lobbying for something like this. After all they cleaned up in Formula 3 using a production derived power plant back in the 1980s.

Production-based engines may well be very costly Formula 1. A number of manufactures - including Ferrari - don't have a 2-litre turbocharged engine in their road cars.

[duke_toaster]

They do - it's called badge engineering one from one of their sister brands - FIAT or Alfa Romeo.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

They do - it's called badge engineering one from one of their sister brands - FIAT or Alfa Romeo.

Badge engineering is not a long term solution. In case Ferrari would be sold to another brand or become independent - e.g. sold to a number of private investors - the badge engineering and hence Ferrari's involvement in Formula 1 would come under threat.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Badge engineering is not a long term solution.

F1 has never had long term solutions for anything. I wouldn't see that as a barrier.

[Marbot]

What could have been...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19163.html

F1 teams were getting 1500 bhp out of 1.5 litre turbo engines nearly thirty years ago. 1 litre turbos should be well powerful enough these days.

[Oldtony]

It would seem that many here see that the seperation ofengine builders and chassis constructors is quite acceptable.
I agree, but the standardisation of engines to one supplier would be a disaster.
Why not a "stock block" formula that would enable any major car company to invest usefully in R&D, and get market kudos without the politics and other garbage that the teams seem to want to get involved with.
Cosworth Engineering originated as people who built engines around stock components. The BMW 1.5ltr turbo was based on a stock 2ltr 4 cyl block, Vanwall was based on the double knocker Norton Motor cycle, Coventry Climax on fire pumps etc.
The common factor is that the lack of prescription in the regs allowed imagination to overcome big budgets.
Stock block and fuel limitation for race distance just might make things interesting again.