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Old 21 May 2017, 12:31 (Ref:3734944)   #5416
Akrapovic
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Thanks for the translations. I didn't look at it right the first time. I agree with you guys and see now the year for the diesel race engine is around the '99, 2000 mark so too early to be the R10. But if Audi was only that efficient 5 or 6 years later it's still a good deal higher than the petrol engine cars. No wonder Audi and Peugeot were said to be making near 800hp.
What it really does show is the amount of money thrown at diesel engines for development in road use. In Europe especially governments were on a massive diesel push because of better fuel mileage and lower emissions. In the UK you saved hundreds of pounds a year on tax using a diesel. Only the last 5 years or so did they start throwing the same money at petrol engine, usually little ones with turbos. Then the VW stuff kick started that more. In the UK it has highlighted we weren't even measuring the correct emission gas, nevermind the amount of gas.

The graph is pretty inaccurate in a lot of ways, but it is good at demonstrating the attitude towards the fuels and how governments pushed certain agendas at certain times.

Remember that a diesel engine is generally more efficient, and diesel contains more energy per litre than petrol, but it requires a larger and heavier engine to extract it, which makes it difficult for racing use, and more suited to high torque vehicles (lorries, tractors), and long distance motorway travelling where you don't have to do a lot of stop starting with the extra weight.
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Old 21 May 2017, 13:32 (Ref:3734965)   #5417
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CyberMotor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCyberMotor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCyberMotor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCyberMotor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
In the US, I remember the old Mercedes diesels that smoked and rattled. If, you got behind one, you would think they were burning coal for fuel. With the increase in emissions laws, they faded.

Along comes the Audi LMP with "clean diesel". I bought into it even when my eyes were seeing something different. I hoped that the efficiency of the diesel could be a viable tool for increased efficiency and clean while doing so.

The last time I saw Audi and Peugeot racing at PLM, late in the night it looked like they were fogging for mosquitoes they had so much smoke coming out. Some said at the time, "All race cars smoke late in a race." I've seen many race cars at the end of a race and I know when some cars are not smoking at all and some are puffing.

VW's deception sealed the deal in the US, I think. Full electric will probably be the future while diesel stays where the torque is needed for moving larges masses.
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Old 21 May 2017, 13:55 (Ref:3734973)   #5418
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Yeah the ACO regs regarding diesels said there must be no visible emissions. This was fine with the R10, but come 2008 Peugeot had turned up the fuel mixture and it was very clearly visible from trackside. Stood trackside at the esses looking up at the Dunlop bridge and you could see it against the sky in the morning. Since the ACO were then ignoring it (rule obviously didn't apply to the French cars), Audi had to respond and come the R15 they had visible fumes too, and the ACO decided to not bother with that rule.

Where did the Toyota graph come from? It's a very odd one. Doesn't seem to fit with the scales and since its LMP based you'd expect a bit of data on the Audi diesels, but they've highlighted toad cars. Its a bit strange that one.
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Old 21 May 2017, 14:29 (Ref:3734985)   #5419
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Also same rules don't apply to Ford, Chevy and Dodge pick ups with diesel engines, which probably pollute a lot more than VAG's cheater engines ever did. Diesels are better at carbon emissions, but NOX emissions have never really been much different between the two.
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Old 21 May 2017, 14:54 (Ref:3734993)   #5420
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Also same rules don't apply to Ford, Chevy and Dodge pick ups with diesel engines, which probably pollute a lot more than VAG's cheater engines ever did. Diesels are better at carbon emissions, but NOX emissions have never really been much different between the two.
Pickups are classified differently. I believe they have different safety standards too.
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Old 21 May 2017, 14:59 (Ref:3734998)   #5421
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Never the less, I think that they should have to abide by similar emissions standards, considering their popularity, and that gasoline engined trucks already use modified V8s from Ford, GM and Chrysler road cars.
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Old 21 May 2017, 15:19 (Ref:3735003)   #5422
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Yeah, I agree but it's because they're classified differently (utility vehicles) which is how they get away with. One of the many reasons pickups are not that popular in Europe. In the UK you'd bankrupt yourself on the emissions tax. That might change with the new tax laws we have starting this year.
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Old 21 May 2017, 21:57 (Ref:3735138)   #5423
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Yeah the ACO regs regarding diesels said there must be no visible emissions. This was fine with the R10, but come 2008 Peugeot had turned up the fuel mixture and it was very clearly visible from trackside. Stood trackside at the esses looking up at the Dunlop bridge and you could see it against the sky in the morning. Since the ACO were then ignoring it (rule obviously didn't apply to the French cars), Audi had to respond and come the R15 they had visible fumes too, and the ACO decided to not bother with that rule.
Yes, I do think the Audis were cleaner early on. The Peugeot entry did seem to affect the rules and things weren't as clear as before.

When everyone was talking about equalizing diesel and petrol, with a petrol engine you can restrict the air on the front end, with a diesel, you have particulate filters that restrict the engine on exhaust.

Later on, it seemed the particulate filters weren't focused on as they were earlier.
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Old Yesterday, 02:03 (Ref:3735164)   #5424
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TF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I don't think we'll see a diesel back in lmp1 unless it's with Peugeot. But that doesn't look likely either.

On topic, does anyone think we'll see Toyota do a qualifying type run at the test day? These last few years they seem to have been focusing mostly on race pace. But now with three cars they have that much more data to compile and can split programs through three cars instead of two.
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Old Yesterday, 02:29 (Ref:3735166)   #5425
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Qualifying serves no real purpose in a 24 hour race other than bragging rights. The test day priority is going to be the race setups. Fundamentally is poor management to pursue anything otherwise.

Will they put low fuel on a race setup, new tires, max turbo boost, max ers in qualifying practice on wednesday/thursday of raceweek? Absolutely.
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Old Yesterday, 04:47 (Ref:3735182)   #5426
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TF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTF110 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Qualifying does serve a purpose. They have 3 cars now and can block out Porsche from racing the leading car(s) by doing a 1-2-3. Having/getting all the cars ahead of the Porsches at the start can help with strategy as well. It puts them in the drivers seat for the tempo of at least the first stint of the race. And of course like you said, bragging rights, that can be important too! I think both teams would like to brag about being on pole.
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Old Yesterday, 06:04 (Ref:3735190)   #5427
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i am not sure either team are bothered by the bragging rights, they just want to win and after last year Toyota will be solely focused on getting the reliability, set up and race pace. I will be there to watch on test day but expect very few ultra fast runs and plenty of longer runs to get the data required to work out pit stop strategy
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Old Yesterday, 15:53 (Ref:3735290)   #5428
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Never the less, I think that they should have to abide by similar emissions standards, considering their popularity, and that gasoline engined trucks already use modified V8s from Ford, GM and Chrysler road cars.
They have been for roughly 10 years now. Trucks weighing 8-10,000 lbs are now classified as medium duty and are held to the same emissions standards as passenger cars and light duty trucks.
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Old Yesterday, 22:14 (Ref:3735363)   #5429
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i am not sure either team are bothered by the bragging rights, they just want to win and after last year Toyota will be solely focused on getting the reliability, set up and race pace. I will be there to watch on test day but expect very few ultra fast runs and plenty of longer runs to get the data required to work out pit stop strategy
But the media makes a big deal out of it on the Friday before and iirc it's worth a point in the world championship. The focus will always be on the race, but making a qualifying run always happens. Last year Toyota's pace was fine, and the reliability issue has been fixed (hopefully no others pop up). They didn't have a 'qualifying mode' in the 2016 car, I remember reading. But this year they seemingly do. Is it wrong to hope they go for a super fast lap?
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