Driver Lewis Hamilton is the best driver in F1. Discuss - Page 6

Fox89 · 19 Jul 2010, 16:33 (Ref:2729124)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Those are good arguments for saying he's one of the best. However, Alonso won it back to back, Lewis hasn't (though he could do in the future) so saying he's Alonso's equal is a little dubious when the facts speak for themselves.

Number of WDCs on its own doesn't speak for itself at all. Ask people who was better, Prost or Schumacher and you'll get varying responses because it all depends on circumstance. Back to back championships mean a little less if you have a huge car advantage (like the 2005 Renault) and a weaker team-mate.

I think the fact that Hamilton was Alonso's equal in the same car is far more relevant. They had exactly the same machinery and the double champion came off second best. That fact speaks for itself as well.

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 16:37 (Ref:2729130)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Those are good arguments for saying he's one of the best. However, Alonso won it back to back, Lewis hasn't (though he could do in the future) so saying he's Alonso's equal is a little dubious when the facts speak for themselves.

Those facts say that Schumacher is 2.3 recurring times as good as Senna, but that doesn't mean he is.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 16:50 (Ref:2729138)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox89

Number of WDCs on its own doesn't speak for itself at all. Ask people who was better, Prost or Schumacher and you'll get varying responses because it all depends on circumstance. Back to back championships mean a little less if you have a huge car advantage (like the 2005 Renault) and a weaker team-mate.

I think the fact that Hamilton was Alonso's equal in the same car is far more relevant. They had exactly the same machinery and the double champion came off second best. That fact speaks for itself as well.

WDCs on their own don't speak for themselves but they are the measure of a driver's potential and success, otherwise why bother to have a driver's championship at all?

Quite true Alonso did come off second best, he obviously found it very difficult to transfer to McLaren and make the adjustment to a team that's been moulded around Lewis. On the other hand Jenson has, so either his approach or temprement was better than Alonso's, when it came to joining a new team.

Lewis has never had to adjust to a new team and all that it entails.

Fox89 · 19 Jul 2010, 16:52 (Ref:2729141)

Quote:

Lewis has never had to adjust to a new team and all that it entails

Yes, although bear in mind whilst Alonso was trying to adjust to a new team, he was being matched by a young racer trying to adjust to a new formula.

Quote:

WDCs on their own don't speak for themselves but they are the measure of a driver's potential and success, otherwise why bother to have a driver's championship at all?

They are a measure of success, but are unreliable when trying to take into account where a driver ranks in terms of raw skill, as using WDCs on their own gives you no indication of car advantage or strength of opposition. Stirling Moss never won a WDC, for example. Does that mean if he was a young man racing in the 1990s, he would have been beaten by Damon Hill? Impossible to say either way.

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 16:53 (Ref:2729142)

But he had to adjust to F1 itself in 2007, which however well-prepared he was, is a mighty difficult task. And he equalled Alonso (and actually just beat him on points countback- but, I don't want to get too into statistics after what I just said in my previous post

). That's showing potential. Based on that, if they were in the same cars now, Hamilton should beat him.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 16:55 (Ref:2729143)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox89

Yes, although bear in mind whilst Alonso was trying to adjust to a new team, he was being matched by a young racer trying to adjust to a new formula.

Indeed, though Lewis had the advantage of being groomed for the role for years, with the necessary comfort zone in place.

Wims · 19 Jul 2010, 17:01 (Ref:2729145)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox89

...
I think the fact that Hamilton was Alonso's equal in the same car is far more relevant. They had exactly the same machinery and the double champion came off second best. That fact speaks for itself as well.

They ended on exactly the same amount of points and the team boss claimed that they were racing vs Alonso .... lol. Thats not equal terms

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 17:13 (Ref:2729151)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox89

They are a measure of success, but are unreliable when trying to take into account where a driver ranks in terms of raw skill, as using WDCs on their own gives you no indication of car advantage or strength of opposition. Stirling Moss never won a WDC, for example. Does that mean if he was a young man racing in the 1990s, he would have been beaten by Damon Hill? Impossible to say either way.

Exactly, as these other factors have to be taken into account, which makes debates like 'Driver Lewis Hamilton is the best driver in F1. Discuss', rather pointless to a certain extent, though fun to discuss, unless you're going to really delve deep into the subject and coax every item of information.

Knowlesy · 19 Jul 2010, 17:27 (Ref:2729161)

[/QUOTE=Born Racer]Did anyone say he is 'certainly' the best?[/QUOTE]

No. Until now; he is certainly the best.

Some or the reasons given against this are dubious.

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 17:27 (Ref:2729163)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

They ended on exactly the same amount of points and the team boss claimed that they were racing vs Alonso .... lol. Thats not equal terms

We know Ron Dennis has his emotional attachments to drivers. And this was after Alonso was happy to use the stolen data until he thought he could benefit his position in the team, so he blackmailed his boss wanting himself to be number 1 (and no, that's not equal terms either). Even then, I believe McLaren acted fairly and gave them equal opportunities until the season was over and they could get rid of the troublemaker. And then Alonso squandered his chances of ever racing again for one of the most organised (yes, I'm looking at you Ferrari- you're not as good at that) teams in the sport.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 17:29 (Ref:2729164)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

[/QUOTE=Born Racer]Did anyone say he is 'certainly' the best?

No. Until now; he is certainly the best.

Some or the reasons given against this are dubious.[/QUOTE]

As are some of the reasons given for it.

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 17:32 (Ref:2729165)

What are the reasons you find dubious?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 17:59 (Ref:2729180)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

What are the reasons you find dubious?

None of the reasons have taken into account Lewis's unique situation at McLaren. His position there has never been challenged. With Jenson Button arriving on the scene, it could easily have gone the way of Vettel and Webber but it hasn't and this has allowed Lewis to maintain his position at McLaren and he comes across as very relaxed.

Also none of the reasons given prove he is the best, then again none of the reasons to say he isn't are proof that he isn't the best either This is one of those debates that never can be won, though they are good fun to engage in.

Fox89 · 19 Jul 2010, 18:11 (Ref:2729187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

None of the reasons have taken into account Lewis's unique situation at McLaren. His position there has never been challenged. With Jenson Button arriving on the scene, it could easily have gone the way of Vettel and Webber but it hasn't and this has allowed Lewis to maintain his position at McLaren and he comes across as very relaxed.

Also none of the reasons given prove he is the best, then again none of the reasons to say he isn't are proof that he isn't the best either This is one of those debates that never can be won, though they are good fun to engage in.

If he wins one or two more WDC, there will be no argument!

Which, personally, I see happening sooner rather than later. I said this halfway through 2009 and will say it again now: I expect Lewis Hamilton to become at least a triple world champion, and will be very surprised if he doesn't!

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 19:10 (Ref:2729226)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox89

If he wins one or two more WDC, there will be no argument!

Which, personally, I see happening sooner rather than later. I said this halfway through 2009 and will say it again now: I expect Lewis Hamilton to become at least a triple world champion, and will be very surprised if he doesn't!

If he does that would be fantastic, especially if he did it in another team rather than McLaren.

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 19:19 (Ref:2729230)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This is one of those debates that never can be won, though they are good fun to engage in.

Absolutely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

If he does that would be fantastic, especially if he did it in another team rather than McLaren.

I don't think moving teams is as hard as you make out. There's a lot of new learning to be done, but if Lewis doesn't move team (and in a way it would be nice to see a driver stay in one place for their career), I hope you don't hold that against him too much for your own personal ranking of him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

None of the reasons have taken into account Lewis's unique situation at McLaren. His position there has never been challenged.

I don't agree. In what way did Fernando Alonso not challenge him? Ron Dennis didn't go to the trouble of getting there and paying him megabucks for him to be a 'number 2'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Also none of the reasons given prove he is the best, then again none of the reasons to say he isn't are proof that he isn't the best either

What about he beat Alonso (or at least was on a par with him if you don't want to consider the championship result) over a season in his first season, and the fact that Vettel (a name who was touted as being an alternative best driver) has ropey racecraft and isn't putting one over Mark Webber, whom not many people consider as one of the best?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 19:45 (Ref:2729247)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Absolutely.

I don't think moving teams is as hard as you make out. There's a lot of new learning to be done, but if Lewis doesn't move team (and in a way it would be nice to see a driver stay in one place for their career), I hope you don't hold that against him too much for your own personal ranking of him.

I don't agree. In what way did Fernando Alonso not challenge him? Ron Dennis didn't go to the trouble of getting there and paying him megabucks for him to be a 'number 2'.

What about he beat Alonso (or at least was on a par with him if you don't want to consider the championship result) over a season in his first season, and the fact that Vettel (a name who was touted as being an alternative best driver) has ropey racecraft and isn't putting one over Mark Webber, whom not many people consider as one of the best?

Not wanting to sound glib but switching from one team to another is going to affect each driver differently and of course Ron Dennis isn't going to hire a number 2 but the switch to a team, where all the focus is primarily on Lewis and where the team has been built round him can't have been easy for Alonso. I think Alonso did very well under the circumstances.

Of course I won't hold it against him, if he doesn't move, that's his decision, though I will wonder how he would have faired without that comfort zone that McLaren have provided for him.

strider · 19 Jul 2010, 19:54 (Ref:2729252)

Yes, Hamilton is the best at the moment, which was the original question, but he's no Valentino Rossi equivalent, is he?

**Born Racer** · 19 Jul 2010, 19:59 (Ref:2729261)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course I won't hold it against him, if he doesn't move, that's his decision, though I will wonder how he would have faired without that comfort zone that McLaren have provided for him.

Furry muff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

Yes, Hamilton is the best at the moment, which was the original question, but he's no Valentino Rossi equivalent, is he?

In what sense?

ljakse · 19 Jul 2010, 20:05 (Ref:2729266)

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

Yes, Hamilton is the best at the moment, which was the original question, but he's no Valentino Rossi equivalent, is he?

Wait 'till he is 30.

strider · 19 Jul 2010, 20:09 (Ref:2729271)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

In what sense?

Just about any you care to mention.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 20:15 (Ref:2729275)

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

Just about any you care to mention.

Like 2 wheels good 4 wheels better?

strider · 19 Jul 2010, 20:25 (Ref:2729285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Like 2 wheels good 4 wheels better?

I think the rider input on 2 wheels is much greater than a driver's on 4 wheels

But the whole atmosphere is different and better in MotoGP than in F1, yet there were only 17 starters in Germany yesterday, so F1 must be doing something better.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jul 2010, 20:36 (Ref:2729297)

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

I think the rider input on 2 wheels is much greater than a driver's on 4 wheels

But the whole atmosphere is different and better in MotoGP than in F1, yet there were only 17 starters in Germany yesterday, so F1 must be doing something better.

I've found F1's marketing very slick in comparison to MotoGPs.

strider · 19 Jul 2010, 22:08 (Ref:2729356)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I've found F1's marketing very slick in comparison to MotoGPs.

I think it is, relatively speaking, and that's the difference, but it still falls way short of NASCAR.

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