JPM / JV incident

Captain Chaos · 9 Oct 2005, 14:42 (Ref:1428436)

Can anyone describe what happened between JPM and JV in the opening lap? The Canadian broadcast didn't show anything except a wrecked McLaren after the fact, and then showed the next 5 laps under the safety car in great bloody boring detail.

JV says he didn't see JPM. JPM says JV missed the chicane and pushed him off the track.

Did anyone see what really happened? Thanks.

Menelaos · 9 Oct 2005, 14:53 (Ref:1428454)

nope, haven't seen it. the replays show nothing, but i suppose something must have happened there if JV got a penalty, a rather harsh one. I haven't seen anything clear though, which is surprising, with all the cams they have....

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2005, 14:54 (Ref:1428456)

JV cut the chicane, and then when JPM got alongside Jacques ran him off the road.

Crass.

Menelaos · 9 Oct 2005, 14:59 (Ref:1428461)

so it was a fair penalty you think, it really wasn't JPM's fault?

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 15:07 (Ref:1428468)

What was the penalty?

JPM said in an interview that JV cut the chicane as k-b says, he tried going down JV's right, JV cut him off, then went for the left hand side and JV pushed him off the track.

Unfortunatly the TV pictures only show the end of the incident with JV and JPM both down the left hand side of the track.

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2005, 15:08 (Ref:1428470)

Penalty was a 25 sec penalty for JV, dropping him from 11th to 12th

Captain Chaos · 9 Oct 2005, 15:09 (Ref:1428472)

post deleted, k-b was faster

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 15:10 (Ref:1428475)

JV gets 25 seconds added to his time, Sato got 10 place penalty last time out, go figure.

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2005, 15:16 (Ref:1428490)

True, but JV didn't actually hit him!

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 15:18 (Ref:1428492)

True, but he got penalised for an incident that led to someone else going out of the race, as did Sato. (iirc)

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 15:56 (Ref:1428531)

You'd think someone of Jacques apparent skill and stature, as much as we're led to believe round here, would have the wherewithal to be aware of his surroundings and use his mirrors.

Especially when you're as slow as he has been this season, with McLarens and such right behind.

Jordi · 9 Oct 2005, 16:18 (Ref:1428554)

I don't think it's that clear cut. All I saw in TV was that Jacques seemed to jump the chicane yes, but I don't think you can say he barged off JPM. Unless you have access to more cameras than I have seen.

All I see, really, is inconsistency in penalties and overreaction. It's so easy to penalise someone who's 11th... I wonder if Juan Pablo would have been penalised if the roles had been reversed and he had been on the podium.

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 16:24 (Ref:1428565)

Well, from what I make out, JV was all over the place and JPM commited to the outside to get past. JV moved over and JPM went off in avoidance.

At least he didn't take JV with him.

**Bononi** · 9 Oct 2005, 16:33 (Ref:1428578)

But in the end it damaged McLaren's wcc.

What Ron Dennis thinks of JV does anybody remember ?

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 16:38 (Ref:1428582)

Once held him in high regard.

I'm amazed my memory can recall so far back!

Kirk · 9 Oct 2005, 16:41 (Ref:1428587)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordi

I don't think it's that clear cut. All I saw in TV was that Jacques seemed to jump the chicane yes, but I don't think you can say he barged off JPM. Unless you have access to more cameras than I have seen.

All I see, really, is inconsistency in penalties and overreaction. It's so easy to penalise someone who's 11th... I wonder if Juan Pablo would have been penalised if the roles had been reversed and he had been on the podium.

Yep.......!!!

JPM needs to look in the mirror. It can't always be the other guy at fault. Not totally anyways. Perhaps it was Jacques' error but that is little consequence for JPM if he's in the barrier (AGAIN). You can't just barge through EVERY time you see an opening without weighing the consequences. And when asked by Louise if cold tyres were a factor, his numbskull reply to the effect that cold tyres were new, therefore not a factor, was ...........

Knowlesy · 9 Oct 2005, 16:43 (Ref:1428590)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

JPM needs to look in the mirror.

What a good idea. Look in the mirror for errant Saubers in front of him.

Unless you mean the other mirror of course!

Jordi · 9 Oct 2005, 16:43 (Ref:1428591)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Well, from what I make out, JV was all over the place and JPM commited to the outside to get past. JV moved over and JPM went off in avoidance.

At least he didn't take JV with him.

Juan Pablo says that Jacques blocked him from passing on the inside so he went outside and "he pushed me off the circuit".

Jacques says he didn't see him alongside, so in order to block JPM from passing on the right he had to be watching his mirrors.

To be honest, if we had Juan Pablo's onboard camera view things would be much easier, because I can't really decide from what I've seen and what the drivers say.

Damon · 9 Oct 2005, 16:59 (Ref:1428603)

Juan Pablo is always getting penalised, Indy 03, Indy 04, Canada 05, to name but 3. Don't pretend like he gets let off the hook for these things, he's one of the most heavily penalised guys out there.

You may not like to admit it, but JV screwed up. We may not have seen all the angles but the FIA sure as hell will have and that was their final decision.

Jordi · 9 Oct 2005, 17:10 (Ref:1428612)

Well, he did a thing similar to what Sato did on Trulli today, at Spa 2004 and he didn't get penalised. (And neither Trulli claimed JPM can't drive, despite being spun).

And I can't say Jacques screwed up because I didn't see it, really. I can say Sato screwed up because it was well shown on TV, but I didn't clearly see the JPM/JV incident.

In my mind the penalties are excessive. You disqualify a guy if he intentionally took someone off, not because he tried a move that didn't work. Whether it was on or it wasn't that's debatable, but I think it was excessive.

Kirk · 9 Oct 2005, 17:11 (Ref:1428613)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon

Juan Pablo is always getting penalised, Indy 03, Indy 04, Canada 05, to name but 3. Don't pretend like he gets let off the hook for these things, he's one of the most heavily penalised guys out there.

...and for good reason. The guy needs to grow up and use his brain out there. Instinct alone only goes so far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon

You may not like to admit it, but JV screwed up. We may not have seen all the angles but the FIA sure as hell will have and that was their final decision.

Or did the FIA just take the easy way out?

Menelaos · 9 Oct 2005, 18:05 (Ref:1428654)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordi

Well, he did a thing similar to what Sato did on Trulli today, at Spa 2004 and he didn't get penalised. (And neither Trulli claimed JPM can't drive, despite being spun).

Yes, because it's not the same (refering to Trulli claiming Sato can't drive). It's just not the same. Anyone can make a mistake. But when someone makes a mistake in EVERY gp, then you can really just say he CAN'T DRIVE. JPM is agressive. More agressive that I think he should. But he can drive. Sato is not agressive. Sato is unable to keep track of cars running alongside.

Kicking-back · 9 Oct 2005, 18:11 (Ref:1428661)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

.

Or did the FIA just take the easy way out?

The easy way out would have have been to do nothing

Damon · 9 Oct 2005, 19:08 (Ref:1428722)

There is a massive difference between what JPM did at Spa last year and what Taku did today. JPM pulled a move that has already worked earlier in the same race and Trulli closed the door on him. Taku started his move from so far back he was on another continent and at no point before, during or after the move did it look like he'd make it stick.

BootsOntheSide · 9 Oct 2005, 20:24 (Ref:1428775)

In real terms they did do nothing - dropping from 11th to 12th is no real punishment. It really isn't JPM's fault that JV went off in front of him and didn't pay attention to the other cars around him as he rejoined. Quite how JPM's mirrors would have been of use, when JV was in front of him, needs explaining.

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