JPM / JV incident - Page 2

F1_KING · 9 Oct 2005, 20:34 (Ref:1428785)

it seems that in any incident jpm is in, he is always quick to blame the other driver no matter what. he needs to start taking some responsability for his own actions, as he seems to be in alot of accidents.

maximus · 9 Oct 2005, 20:44 (Ref:1428792)

But JPM was alongside JV when JV moved wildly across the track! It wasn't just halfway, he was CLEARLY alongside! For once it wasn't JPM's fault. JV must have known he was there for the way he wildly blocked him when JPM tried the inside.

Face it JV fans for once that perfect messiah of yours is at fault!

**Adam43** · 9 Oct 2005, 20:44 (Ref:1428793)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1_KING

...he is always quick to blame the other driver no matter what...

This is trait is common amongst those known as racing drivers.

Anyway I am glad we are all looking into the accident and trying to understand it rather than just using pre-conceived convictions.

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 21:28 (Ref:1428816)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

The guy needs to grow up and use his brain out there. Instinct alone only goes so far.

Well, as the FIA penalised JV (and not JPM), the same must be said for him too.

Sodemo · 9 Oct 2005, 21:36 (Ref:1428824)

It always seems to be JPM though, coincidence?

JPM needs to stop being so naive on track.

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 21:39 (Ref:1428829)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monster

JPM needs to stop being so naive on track.

What was naive about trying to get round JV? JV pushed him off, what more can he do? Just sit there behind JV and wait for the pit stops?

**Bononi** · 9 Oct 2005, 21:55 (Ref:1428838)

The truth is, JPM fans and JV fans can't sit next to each other.

Ex-Williams drivers always causes this side effect...

Mr V · 9 Oct 2005, 21:59 (Ref:1428839)

Proberbly right Bon, but it is much more fun

GolddustMini · 9 Oct 2005, 22:13 (Ref:1428849)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

...and for good reason. The guy needs to grow up and use his brain out there. Instinct alone only goes so far.

Or did the FIA just take the easy way out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirk

Yep.......!!!

JPM needs to look in the mirror. It can't always be the other guy at fault. Not totally anyways. Perhaps it was Jacques' error but that is little consequence for JPM if he's in the barrier (AGAIN). You can't just barge through EVERY time you see an opening without weighing the consequences. And when asked by Louise if cold tyres were a factor, his numbskull reply to the effect that cold tyres were new, therefore not a factor, was ...........

I love you

Sodemo · 9 Oct 2005, 22:52 (Ref:1428870)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

What was naive about trying to get round JV? JV pushed him off, what more can he do? Just sit there behind JV and wait for the pit stops?

Its always JPM getting involved in silly incidents during Grand Prix's, you can be given the benefit of the doubt on a few occassions, but after as many incidents as he has had, you have to start pointing you're finger inwards.

I nearly posted a thread stating "what bonehead move will JPM do this race to wreck his car / race etc" but that would have been immature.

GolddustMini · 9 Oct 2005, 22:55 (Ref:1428873)

thing is though, if it was reikenen that got punted off, opinions would be very different...

EHS · 10 Oct 2005, 01:20 (Ref:1428948)

I thought you could see it both ways. Montoya had the entire race to pass Villineuve, or even the front straight they were entering. He could have waited.

JV knew he had a bunch of faster fellows behind him. It wasn't goig to destroy his race to let a Mclaren or Renault past safely.

EHS · 10 Oct 2005, 01:29 (Ref:1428956)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menelaos

....Sato is unable to keep track of cars running alongside.

Lack of peripheral vision.

Louis B. · 10 Oct 2005, 02:10 (Ref:1428976)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Anyway I am glad we are all looking into the accident and trying to understand it rather than just using pre-conceived convictions.

I guess this is irony Adam when you write that ALL people in this thread are not using pre-conceived convictions... Insofar as I am concerned:

1. The least one can say is that there is incomplete footage of the incident. There is this view from Kimi's inboard camera but he was too far away behind other cars such that all can be seen is a distant cloud of smoke when JPM got off. More to the point but still incomplete is this brief camera shot in the curve where you see that:

a) JPM was not side by side JV as he claimed it when he went off, he was still behind; and
b) JV racing line was the same as other cars in the same turn;

2. What about the rule that one is entitled to defend his position?

3. Isn't it a fact that JPM was a bit "overexcited" having almost taken out his own teamate and himself a few corners/laps earlier?

This was a ludicrous penalty the FIA felt forced to give, as with Sato's one in Belgium, as a result of primadonas (MS in Spa; JPM here) crying for wolves.

Louis B. · 10 Oct 2005, 02:13 (Ref:1428978)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

thing is though, if it was reikenen that got punted off, opinions would be very different...

No one got punted off! And, BTW, Raikonnen passed JV without problems and rather raised the name of JPM afterwards as a source of fear for his race.

mac · 10 Oct 2005, 05:05 (Ref:1429070)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

2. What about the rule that one is entitled to defend his position?

By moving ONCE. And not when a car is alongside.

If the incident occurred as both drivers describe, I would be inclined to suggest it was Villeneuve's fault.

However, I just have not seen enough to make a totally conclusive decision.

Interestingly, JV has merely suggested that he did not see Montoya, not necessarily that it was Juan Pablo's fault.

Jordi · 10 Oct 2005, 13:32 (Ref:1429586)

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximus

But JPM was alongside JV when JV moved wildly across the track! It wasn't just halfway, he was CLEARLY alongside! For once it wasn't JPM's fault. JV must have known he was there for the way he wildly blocked him when JPM tried the inside.

Face it JV fans for once that perfect messiah of yours is at fault!

I can't face it because I've seen no footage of the thing. All we see on TV is Montoya already spearing off the track, not quite alongside Jacques. Since there doesn't seem to be footage available to the public before what we saw, I cannot say what happened for certain.

By the way, I'm a JV fan but he's not perfect and no F1 driver is, actually.

Captain Chaos · 10 Oct 2005, 13:48 (Ref:1429604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

More to the point but still incomplete is this brief camera shot in the curve where you see that:

a) JPM was not side by side JV as he claimed it when he went off, he was still behind; and
b) JV racing line was the same as other cars in the same turn

Your flag says you watched the same Canadian broadcast as I did and I didn't see either of those things. I only saw the aftermath on TSN and Speed.

What were you watching?

And if your assessment is correct, how do you reconcile your account with the stewards decision to penalize him 25s for the incident?

Matweenie · 10 Oct 2005, 15:23 (Ref:1429700)

JPM states that JV missed the chicane. If this is the case surely JV should have had to pull over to allow JPM to pass, similar to Alonso/Klien incident? Otherwise the FIA would have deemed JV to have gained an advantage? Maybe this is why the penalty seems harsh?

These FIA rules change so often though, its difficult to keep up with whats allowed and disallowed.

ASCII Man · 10 Oct 2005, 16:18 (Ref:1429750)

This looks oddly familiar to a certain TGF/HHF incident a long long time ago on a circuit far away...

Well, Canada 1998 actually.
TGF got a 10 second penalty back then IIRC.

Kirk · 10 Oct 2005, 16:53 (Ref:1429783)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

In real terms they did do nothing - dropping from 11th to 12th is no real punishment. It really isn't JPM's fault that JV went off in front of him and didn't pay attention to the other cars around him as he rejoined. Quite how JPM's mirrors would have been of use, when JV was in front of him, needs explaining.

Yes, please let me explain. JPM needs to look in his BATHROOM mirror before blaming everyone for his misjudgements, except himself. This is yet another instance of a driver trying to win a GP in the first lap; and instead finding himself sitting at the side of the track. It's no coincidence that the same drivers are repeat offenders. The moment I saw JPM starting near the back of the pack, I expected contact somewhere in the 1st lap and he was true to form. As I said, it takes more than speed and instinct to drive in F1. Look at Kimi, MS and Alonso. They were all in the same situation as JPM but they used their brains to get through traffic and did quite nicely.

Louis B. · 10 Oct 2005, 17:01 (Ref:1429791)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac

By moving ONCE. And not when a car is alongside.

Please all have a careful look at the replay in slow motion. You will see that:

1. JPM has already his two left wheels out of the track when he comes "alongside" JV. He has then already lost control of his car and the only reason it might look as if he is alongside is because he is slidding straight ahead while JV is turning. He is never alongside if you take it account what the racing line then is (i.e. a curve to the right).

2. JV's racing line is the same as the one followed by MS in front of him. Obviously, MS did not have one trying to overtake him in that turn but one is perfectly entitled to take the racing line of his choice.

Someone on this forum showed us on this forum excerpts from TV images which were very helpful when there was the Montoya / Monteiro incident not so long ago. It would be very helpful here but I just don't know how to get and post what was shown here (which is the ITV feed).

Louis B. · 10 Oct 2005, 17:16 (Ref:1429808)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Chaos

Your flag says you watched the same Canadian broadcast as I did and I didn't see either of those things. I only saw the aftermath on TSN and Speed.

What were you watching?

And if your assessment is correct, how do you reconcile your account with the stewards decision to penalize him 25s for the incident?

I saw it on Radio Canada which has the same feed as ITV.

I disagree with the stewards decision on this one. I agreed with the stewards decision not to penalize DC in Brazil even though DC was mostly at fault on that one etc...

Louis B. · 10 Oct 2005, 17:24 (Ref:1429820)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matweenie

JPM states that JV missed the chicane. If this is the case surely JV should have had to pull over to allow JPM to pass, similar to Alonso/Klien incident? Otherwise the FIA would have deemed JV to have gained an advantage? Maybe this is why the penalty seems harsh?

JV was not overtaken at that occasion (if he in fact missed the chicane) such that he did not have to give way. The rule applies when, as with Alonso, the driver behind overtakes by missing the chicane.

BTW, I am not so sure whether JV actually missed the chicane. It was not shown on TV for sure. Kimi did go off and I think it is at that occasion or as a result of his contact with Montoya that he did so (Kimi's after race comments mention an accident with Montoya in the first lap). We see some of it from Kimi's inboard camera whereby you also see Montoya, Massa and, I think, a Jordan going by Kimi before you see the cloud of smoke of JPM going off. A lot went on in a couple of turns and JPM just tried to do too much at the same occasion.

EHS · 10 Oct 2005, 17:36 (Ref:1429837)

I believe the stewards reviewed the footage from the in car video of both cars, and came to the conclusion they did.

It's a shame that isn't made available to the GP any more.

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