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Old 14 Mar 2017, 21:15 (Ref:3718661)   #16
Icarus_nz
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Icarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridIcarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Mark Petch View Post
Icarus, I agree with your entire post including the paragraph in Bold even though it may be aimed at me, but I am OK with that, and hey if in 3 years time its uncompetitive so be it its still a bloody nice piece of kit to own.

.
In truth, no. There was no specific target for my comment, just a personal observation about what I can see happening across the water and in small part here.

What I was referring to, was the people with lesser ability who wish to build or buy a better tool than everybody else and give themselves a leg up.

Plenty of folks see it differently but you've been a guy who has always tried to tick as many boxes as possible.
Quality equipment, Good engines, sufficient consumables, a good standard of people supporting the effort. But most critically, you've always ensured you had high quality drivers.

As history shows, doing more things right than your competitors equals achievement.

Before I get beaten to death for that statement and various (bitter) versions of history get rehashed, can I say that the view above is generic.
You could say the same thing about T8.

The GT model is worth looking at however.
Obviously the great unwashed on the banking like them but they don't pay the bills so I'm less interest in trying to understand them for now.

What is interesting is the fact that many people are prepared to spend large and have a crack.

Some observations:
They look cool, they sound cool and its always nice to tell someone you own a superwhizbang$$$ than a FalcodoreCivicibishi

The driver aids mean the difference between a gentleman racer and properly skilled race driver is less than in a full 'analogue' car. So to say 'I was lapping within 3 seconds of SVG' feels better than having to admit to being 7 sec slower than some spotty kid.

The Pro-Am format is attractive because of the chance to talk rubbish with real stars and name drop away from the meeting

The compulsary timed pit stop was the best trick.
Instead of spending your day driving round the back, at the end of the pit stop cycle, despite knowing the reasons why you were suddenly up the race order, you'd just feel great about yourself for a while. And hence you'd come back again.

Humans are funny old animals. We respond to emotional inputs far more than hard facts and logic.
Administrators and organisers would do well to remember this and ensure competitors feel loved and wanted - even (especially) when they are behaving like spoiled childeren.

I see the CMC guys (and others) having a BBQ and a laugh at the end of the day, creating an inclusive environment.

We're all doing this because we want to. Lets create more reasons to want to do this instead of something else.
There is your path to bigger grids and more interest for spectators.



PS - Mark, do you still have that Viper? How would that go against GT machinery?
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Old 14 Mar 2017, 21:33 (Ref:3718666)   #17
Mark Petch
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
In truth, no. There was no specific target for my comment, just a personal observation about what I can see happening across the water and in small part here.

What I was referring to, was the people with lesser ability who wish to build or buy a better tool than everybody else and give themselves a leg up.

Plenty of folks see it differently but you've been a guy who has always tried to tick as many boxes as possible.
Quality equipment, Good engines, sufficient consumables, a good standard of people supporting the effort. But most critically, you've always ensured you had high quality drivers.

As history shows, doing more things right than your competitors equals achievement.

Before I get beaten to death for that statement and various (bitter) versions of history get rehashed, can I say that the view above is generic.
You could say the same thing about T8.

The GT model is worth looking at however.
Obviously the great unwashed on the banking like them but they don't pay the bills so I'm less interest in trying to understand them for now.

What is interesting is the fact that many people are prepared to spend large and have a crack.

Some observations:
They look cool, they sound cool and its always nice to tell someone you own a superwhizbang$$$ than a FalcodoreCivicibishi

The driver aids mean the difference between a gentleman racer and properly skilled race driver is less than in a full 'analogue' car. So to say 'I was lapping within 3 seconds of SVG' feels better than having to admit to being 7 sec slower than some spotty kid.

The Pro-Am format is attractive because of the chance to talk rubbish with real stars and name drop away from the meeting

The compulsary timed pit stop was the best trick.
Instead of spending your day driving round the back, at the end of the pit stop cycle, despite knowing the reasons why you were suddenly up the race order, you'd just feel great about yourself for a while. And hence you'd come back again.

Humans are funny old animals. We respond to emotional inputs far more than hard facts and logic.
Administrators and organisers would do well to remember this and ensure competitors feel loved and wanted - even (especially) when they are behaving like spoiled childeren.

I see the CMC guys (and others) having a BBQ and a laugh at the end of the day, creating an inclusive environment.

We're all doing this because we want to. Lets create more reasons to want to do this instead of something else.
There is your path to bigger grids and more interest for spectators.



PS - Mark, do you still have that Viper? How would that go against GT machinery?
I sold the Viper nearly 2 years ago, because it could not compete against the Crawford Porsche Daytona Prototype car etc, so given that the new generation 2016 FIA GT3 cars, are potentially as fast as the Crawford Porsche, then no, there is no way my 2002 Transam Viper could compete with the new crop of GT3 cars, which have similar power to weight ratio's, massive brakes, ABS, Traction control, and amazing areo, so cam set and match really.



.
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 08:25 (Ref:3718967)   #18
socram
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socram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsocram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
Look, big grids can make average racing look good.
Totally agree.
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
A small grid with a spectacular battle is worth the price of admission.
Totally disagree! Sorry, but a small grid with cars out of sight for most of a lap at Pukekohe for example, is never going to be worth the price of admission.

If we look at competitor cost/ability as just one pyramid, then my guess is that as Mark has pointed out, those at the very top are very few in number.

If you split it into two pyramids, those with big bucks are also a tiny number and those with exceptional ability are also a tiny number.

They may or may not be atop both pyramids.

You can just as easily use the bell curve principal, where the top 2.5% are real talent and the bottom 2.5% should never ever be on the track.

So, logically, the bulk of competitors are of a reasonable standard, generally with a modest budget, an increasing number of older drivers on a reducing budget, so if we want decent sized grids, (and I certainly do), then there may indeed be a star or two buried in very ordinary classes and they are the ones who do need a realistic stepping stone to better things, either open wheeler or tintop.

We can all name drivers who have a reasonable degree of talent, who, with a better budget could probably do very well in a higher category, but that has always been the case.

Sorry, this isn't advancing the OP's question any, but my usual ramble!
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Old 16 Mar 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3719181)   #19
GHOGH
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GHOGH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Geoff Short has the 'the plans' under control and he is being paid to worry about the future of NZ track motor racing (in his area of concern).
http://www.velocitynews.co.nz/features.php?id=1422
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 03:47 (Ref:3719271)   #20
Icarus_nz
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Icarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridIcarus_nz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And bless his dear little heart for taking it on. No one else wants to touch it so the 'willing horses' have at it.
My only other observation is that Geoff's experience comes with a degree of history...
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 19:45 (Ref:3720283)   #21
GHOGH
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GHOGH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hyundai get involved with TCR.
TCR uses the manufacturer's bodyshell and engine.
https://motorsport.hyundai.com/gabri...t-test-driver/
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 22:44 (Ref:3720312)   #22
Mark Petch
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Originally Posted by Icarus_nz View Post
And bless his dear little heart for taking it on. No one else wants to touch it so the 'willing horses' have at it.
My only other observation is that Geoff's experience comes with a degree of history...
Geoff has done a really good job of promoting and organising the Premier Summer Series, and like all of the SOG members he has some idea's on what he would like to see, but like MSNZ he has no power to to do or enforce anything, he is like the preverbal "Candle in the Wind"

Geoff was bought into the Series by Toyota NZ to kick start the Toyota 86's and in his first year, he managed to double the number's but in the season just finished they have lapsed back to an average of just 11 cars, half the number that Toyota built.

There is only one way that Geoff can earn a dollar from the Premier Series and that is to pack the categories in, and charge each category $15,000 plus GST.

That makes for really long days and virtually compulsory 3 day meeting's, which budget category like our SRS, Ssangyoung Racing Series, competitors simply can't afford, which is why we [SRS] will run several one day meeting next season, and only 2 of the Premier Summer Series meeting's.

NZV8 Utes are also under the pump in terms of competitor numbers and category cost's which is why they may not be able to afford to pay for TV next season, which means that the BNT V8's and Toyota will have to bear 80% of the cost of TV production, and how long BNT are prepared to support the current V8 Touring Car category is any bodies guess.

No disrespect to Geoff and his team but there is no "magic bullet".



.
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Old 23 Mar 2017, 08:07 (Ref:3720844)   #23
socram
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socram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsocram should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Hmm, pack each category in and charge each of them $15,000. That says rather a lot to anyone who has ever hired a track and run a one or two day race meeting.

It also shows up the costs of entry when there are only a handful of cars, hence the need for decent sized grids, not just from a spectator point of view.

The specifics or even generalities of sponsorship, TV coverage, advertising etc. and the perceived benefits, (if any) is the massive grey area that most of us are unfamiliar with and it is that area that we are probably most concerned about, when it comes to lifting the sport.

Totally agree Mark, there is no magic bullet.
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Old 25 Mar 2017, 21:03 (Ref:3721499)   #24
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Speed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpeed-King should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
The GT model is worth looking at however.
Mixed GT3 + GT4 (with an option to fall back on GT4-only) might be an idea. The time for pure GT3 national series seems pretty much over; even France, which has 15 times as many inhabitants as NZ, has dumped the GT3s in favor of GT4 for this year!
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 19:10 (Ref:3721667)   #25
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FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!FIRE has a real shot at the podium!
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Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Mixed GT3 + GT4 (with an option to fall back on GT4-only) might be an idea. The time for pure GT3 national series seems pretty much over; even France, which has 15 times as many inhabitants as NZ, has dumped the GT3s in favor of GT4 for this year!
Why not something like (Dutch) Supercar Challenge? Mix of SEAT Leon, Renault Clio, BMW 1/2/3 Series up to silhouettes, GT4 and GT3 cars.
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Old 26 Mar 2017, 19:40 (Ref:3721668)   #26
GHOGH
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GHOGH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
NZ has a 'GTR" series run as GT1/GT2 and GT3/GT4

http://www.gtrnz.co.nz/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GT4_European_Series
http://gt4series.com/
(I have included the European GT4 definitions to clarify the earlier post on European GT4.)
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Old 27 Mar 2017, 22:05 (Ref:3721986)   #27
Mark Petch
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Mark Petch should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by GHOGH View Post
NZ has a 'GTR" series run as GT1/GT2 and GT3/GT4

http://www.gtrnz.co.nz/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GT4_European_Series
http://gt4series.com/
(I have included the European GT4 definitions to clarify the earlier post on European GT4.)
Hi GHOGH,

I think FIRE is referring to the FIA GT3 and GT4 categories.

I think the recent NZ Endurance Championship shows just how few FIA GT3 cars there are in New Zealand, at most there are ten FIA GT3 cars of various ages, specification's etc, so other than Endurance racing, true GT3 as in adhering to the FIA BOP formula, is probably never going to happen in New Zealand as a domestic Series.

GT4 cars are less expensive, but still well in excess of NZ$250,000 and slower than the current crop of V8 Touring car's, which are now comparatively cheap second hand, at around $125K for a good V8ST car.

I believe as the owner of a FIA GT3 car that, the only way forward for Touring cars in New Zealand is for MSNZ to properly understand what is required to encourage and support a new parity based Touring Car category using the current V8ST and TLX cars as the baseline in terms of performance criteria.

Sadly, I think MSNZ lacks the knowledge, expertise, and resources to make this happen.
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Old 28 Apr 2017, 21:53 (Ref:3729759)   #28
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goldedge should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Growing numbers

Imagine this large fields with mixed classes, accurate time based handicapping (starting positions) faster cars to start at the rear based on individual times, staggered light driven starts to eliminate the obvious current futility of starting at the rear in a large field?

General concept is that if your car can lap 1 second faster than another you start one second behind off the grid and so on down the field.

Easily done with todays electronics data systems, this could result in close even racing,
large entry fields, good spectator experience and income for the circuits and a more even playing field for the racers.

Thoughts?

Michael
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Old 28 Apr 2017, 23:19 (Ref:3729772)   #29
GHOGH
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GHOGH should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just to comment on one point. Spectator experience - as illustrated in this vid from the recent D1NZ at Pukekohe, the cars disappear behind the fences after the front straight, there is only the tyre smoke to indicate the positions of the cars.
https://youtu.be/cxMkTO7vLpw?t=4m17s
Would touring cars require coloured aerials (etc) to indicate their positions to the spectators.
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Old 29 Apr 2017, 03:40 (Ref:3729827)   #30
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As an Aussie outsider I would think TCR would be ideal for NZ.
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