|
Site Partners: | Veloce Books | OldRacingCars.com |
4 Jan 2009, 23:45 (Ref:2365309) | #26 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
The other feature they share is that both have lost their original chassis plates but have all the Arch numbers (matching crossmembers etc)maybe the clue is here?
1 reason 12A lost its plate is if it was racing in the 1981 era historic series that was for pre 72 cars a b21 with a plate change would not raise eyebrows! |
|
|
5 Jan 2009, 22:50 (Ref:2365944) | #27 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 142
|
Quote:
Nice to see you the other day. I may be interested in one of your pit tool boxes. |
|||
|
6 Jan 2009, 01:32 (Ref:2366020) | #28 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
The points you raise i think relate to the passenger b19 cover v b21 open cockpit part due to the rules stating the cars had to be 2 seater in 72
Lola T290 had a centre section split between seats that was "open" but gave a better slant of trying to cover the passenger seat up ! PM me yr email address i will send u lola pics and tool chest pics |
|
|
6 Jan 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2366328) | #29 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 520
|
I think the change was to mandate symmetry in plan view, after all they had always had two seats, and of course the driver had always to sit to one side of the centre line for it to be a sports car - this thanks to Roger Penske....
|
|
|
6 Jan 2009, 16:18 (Ref:2366452) | #30 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
yes i can see the logic on that ( a bit like the side car argument once it was 1 side wheel with 2 other wheels front rear in line then evolved into 3 wheels placed to the advantage of baolnce weight power distribution= is it a side car or a 3 wheels sports car)
what did it have to do with RP? was he pushing the envelope with Mark in his cars sitting more on the centre line than to the right or left of centre line in the 917 can am cars? |
|
|
7 Jan 2009, 18:10 (Ref:2367179) | #31 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 402
|
Quote:
The 1972 Gp 5 regulations required, from 1st April, that ''an opaque and non flexible part of the coachwork must extend downwards behind the rear wheelsof the car to 20cm minimumfrom the ground and cover the entire width of the rear wheels and tyres'' The waiver for the opening in the bodywork, 1972 required symmetry, was not extended so all cars had to have a symmetrical non covered opening for 1972. Shall I go on? |
||
|
7 Jan 2009, 18:13 (Ref:2367182) | #32 | ||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
At the same time the 5-litre limit for G5 was reduced to 3-litre and the requirement for production of 25 was removed as everyone had been cheating anyway so what was the point.
|
||
|
8 Jan 2009, 16:33 (Ref:2367726) | #33 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,026
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
9 Jan 2009, 22:54 (Ref:2368590) | #34 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
in 1972 1 B21 car run in Japan
18 Hiroshi Fushida / J Chevron B21P Ford 1973 2 B21 cars running 1 Hiroshi Fushida Chevron B21P Ford 27 Jiro Yoneyama Chevron B21 Ford I assume this car is imported |
|
|
11 Jan 2009, 15:46 (Ref:2369425) | #35 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
Whilst I am impressed by so much 'data' from original news reports being quoted and the vast amount of research being carried out to 'out' the facts, and given personal memory fades with the passing years I have not quite gone ga ga yet and add.
Peter Smith & David Welpton assembled their own B21 with a new chassis number 1 using some parts they aquired from the wreck of Peter Humble's B16/19. Peter Smith collected the parts from Lupton Towers Kirkby Lonsdale, the then family home of the Humbles where the 16/19 and subsequently the 21 were housed, and the chassis; the ex B16 spyder was cut up and disposed of via the weekly bin collection. The 'deal' between Nick May and the Humbles never materialised and standard FVC of which two were owned were the power units used, Nick only driving for two WCM events Spa 1000Ks [6th overall, DSJ Motorsport page 610 June 1972]and The Ring 1000Ks DNS. Motorsport gives the Humble/May entry as B19, Confused! The chassis was aquired from Arch Motors between end of 19 production and start of 21 production, but incorperated all 21 updates. At the end of the 72 season after Paris 1000Ks at Rouen the car and all spares were delivered to Bob Howlings for sale, I believe it subsequently went to the USofA, where it now has probably become 4 cars! |
||
|
11 Jan 2009, 17:28 (Ref:2369478) | #36 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
I am getting confused! Group 6 were prototype cars and were allowed to run without the wheels fully enclosed and the 2litre series were run as group 6. Group 4 became group5 and to comply wheels had to be fully enclosed and headlights, on Humbles car I made the headlight recesses oval, Tony Galland made the Red Rose cars retangular which became the works standard. Narrow strips were also added to the rear wheel arches as slicks protruded outside of the bodywork, this was remedied on later rear bodywork by Specalised Mouldings. I am sure this work was carried out before the 72 Spa 1000Ks. 2 front sections were used one with lights one without and the rear wheel spats removed for 2ltr series. From memory John Boot, Burton's man fitted the first adjustable spoiler to the rear bodywork, and of course all followed suit.
|
||
|
11 Jan 2009, 18:05 (Ref:2369509) | #37 | ||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
Group 5 until the end of 1971 were 25-minimum sports cars (so B16 for example); group 6 was sports prototypes (B16S). From 1972 they were merged as a new Gp 5 with no minimum.
|
||
|
11 Jan 2009, 22:38 (Ref:2369642) | #38 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
12 Jan 2009, 08:11 (Ref:2369758) | #39 | ||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
512s and 917s were in the pre-71 Group 5. The new 1972 Group 5 regulations introduced the 3-litre limit.
|
||
|
12 Jan 2009, 08:58 (Ref:2369787) | #40 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
If you had the 1-2 million to buy 1 of these cars would it be the 917 or 512 that sits in your garage!
|
|
|
12 Jan 2009, 10:08 (Ref:2369821) | #41 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
We had a 917 [Chassis 23 the film car] till a certain gent sold it in preference for a green roller skate. Have to get the adrenalin kick from a certain 'green' one when it is bought out now and again to play.
Group 4 ceased in 1970 for sports race cars and correct Gp5 & 6 replaced with 25 cars in a 12 month period to be produced for Gp5 appendix J with a max of 3litres introduced for 1972. At the end of 1976 all sports race cars were placed in Gp5 and Gp4 GT cars were reduced from 1000 to 400 models in a 12 month period. Info willie whatever encyclo. Last edited by p261brm; 12 Jan 2009 at 10:11. |
||
|
12 Jan 2009, 10:20 (Ref:2369827) | #42 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,493
|
1973 FIA Year Book states ...........
"Cars of the former Group 5 which benefit from an FIA recognition may continue to run as sports cars, even if they do not comply with the new minimal inside dimensions. Equally cars of the former Group 6 (sports prototype), certified by the National Sporting Authority of the country of construction, to have been manufactured before 1st January 1972 may continue to compete under the new Group 5 rules. However, the symmetry of the cockpit opening for open cars must in all cases be observed." My favourite regulation states "... if no windshield is provided for, windshield-wipers are not compulsory". The FIA masters of the bleeding obvious! |
||
|
12 Jan 2009, 10:53 (Ref:2369841) | #43 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
The FIA masters of the bleeding obvious!It is worrying- no wondre there are problems in motorsport with the heirachy
on another note having gone through 1972 73 and now doing 1974 AS adverts it does strike me that very few B21 cars where in UK with a couple of B19 cars "updated" to b21 |
|
|
13 Jan 2009, 18:07 (Ref:2370780) | #44 | ||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
I now have access to B21 records and can connect these first cars to chassis numbers:
A. Brian Robinson (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-4 B. Trevor Twaites (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-2 C. Pete Smith/Dave Wepton (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-3 D. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: John Hine (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8 E. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Jose Juncadella (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8 F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (presumably a B19) G. Canon Cameras: John Burton (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-12A Canon Cameras: Bob Wollek (not ready in time for Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-14 Max Olivar (not ready in time for Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-6 Numbers 5, 9, 10, 10A and 12 had gone to Italy, Switzerland or the US so I'm sure we'll see them later. |
||
|
14 Jan 2009, 00:43 (Ref:2371041) | #45 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
so what about these cars?
b21-72-1 is Tucket Fletcher car? B21 BMW M12 for dieter quester is 15? Mauro Nesti has B21 on the mountain races in Italy B21 goes to japan in 72 E. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Jose Juncadella (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8 F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (presumably a B19)How do you each that conclusion? |
|
|
14 Jan 2009, 08:46 (Ref:2371167) | #46 | ||||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
|
14 Jan 2009, 09:20 (Ref:2371196) | #47 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,493
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
14 Jan 2009, 09:37 (Ref:2371208) | #48 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,230
|
allen trying to cause disarray
Tucket / Fletcher car is not 2 cars its 1 car |
|
|
14 Jan 2009, 10:14 (Ref:2371223) | #49 | ||
OldRacingCars.com
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,942
|
My point precisely. Fletcher's name appears on the end of the B19 list (B19-71-31) and also on the start of the B21 list (B21-72-1). That doesn't mean he had two cars - he had one car with two alternative chassis numbers.
|
||
|
16 Jan 2009, 17:52 (Ref:2372856) | #50 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,359
|
Quote:
Last edited by p261brm; 16 Jan 2009 at 17:55. |
|||
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Calling all Chevron owners and fans - Chevron Heritage | Gerald Swan | Historic Racing Today | 58 | 13 Nov 2011 09:04 |
Chevron B21 | allard | Motorsport History | 6 | 26 Feb 2007 12:25 |
Chevron B21 | allard | Motorsport History | 1 | 16 Jan 2007 10:57 |
Chevron B21 | phdm | Motorsport History | 6 | 21 Oct 2005 04:15 |
Chevron ?????? B21 | Bryan Miller | Motorsport History | 2 | 24 Nov 2003 15:58 |