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Old 4 Jan 2009, 23:45 (Ref:2365309)   #26
driftwood
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The other feature they share is that both have lost their original chassis plates but have all the Arch numbers (matching crossmembers etc)maybe the clue is here?
1 reason 12A lost its plate is if it was racing in the 1981 era historic series that was for pre 72 cars a b21 with a plate change would not raise eyebrows!
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Old 5 Jan 2009, 22:50 (Ref:2365944)   #27
Delbert
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Originally Posted by driftwood
Simon may i correct you on 1 point ( prepared to have sand kicke dback in my face and cook a Pie or should i make that a Pye! if wrong)

B19 car had closed cockpit over passenger seat and roll hoops where not full lwidth in rules ( see lola T290) rear wheel body work open
B21 had to be open cockpit over passenger seat full cockpit width rroll hopp rule implemented but rear wheel arch bodywork open

B23 as above BUT rear wheel arch bodywork HAD to be coverd in so rain/ dirt etc could not fly out hence B23 has a bolt on body piece to the tail very neat where as the t292 lola had it all moulded in with rear wing but T290 cars cobbled up any old plate they had to fit their cars

I also understad that in 72 we had a change in tyres as slicks came along and some cars run the treaded tyre some tried slicks these had different side wall heights ad as ssuch had a bearing on rear wishbone lengths camber castor ride height and this is where the B19 to 21 would also have been "modified"
now what i want to know IS there a difference in B19 chassis to b21
The b16 as we know IS different hnce why 5 b16 cars get stripped down of core componnents ie engine gearbox uprights brakes wheels etc and fitted to new chassis body wishbone

i now take 2 steps back and wait for the fall out!
Driftwood - I didn't think I would be able to tell you anything about these things! But the differences between B19 and B21 chassis is that the B19 has a narrower central member between the "seats" about 3" wide. The B21 was made wider (rules and Regs I believe) about 5". The side pods on the B21 are narrower than the B19 to accomodate the wider centre section without increasing the overall width.

Nice to see you the other day. I may be interested in one of your pit tool boxes.
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Old 6 Jan 2009, 01:32 (Ref:2366020)   #28
driftwood
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The points you raise i think relate to the passenger b19 cover v b21 open cockpit part due to the rules stating the cars had to be 2 seater in 72
Lola T290 had a centre section split between seats that was "open" but gave a better slant of trying to cover the passenger seat up !
PM me yr email address i will send u lola pics and tool chest pics
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Old 6 Jan 2009, 13:01 (Ref:2366328)   #29
Simon Hadfield
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think the change was to mandate symmetry in plan view, after all they had always had two seats, and of course the driver had always to sit to one side of the centre line for it to be a sports car - this thanks to Roger Penske....
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Old 6 Jan 2009, 16:18 (Ref:2366452)   #30
driftwood
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yes i can see the logic on that ( a bit like the side car argument once it was 1 side wheel with 2 other wheels front rear in line then evolved into 3 wheels placed to the advantage of baolnce weight power distribution= is it a side car or a 3 wheels sports car)

what did it have to do with RP?
was he pushing the envelope with Mark in his cars sitting more on the centre line than to the right or left of centre line in the 917 can am cars?
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Old 7 Jan 2009, 18:10 (Ref:2367179)   #31
Jeremy Hall
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Jeremy Hall should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield
A pedant writes, as far as I am aware all B19s had full width 'hoops (except the 16s/19 prototype) and in the full international Group Six races in 1972 all cars, 312PBs, Alfas, Chevrons had the rear wheels covered in behind. The 2 litre series did seem to leave them open - I wonder why the rule should be different at the same time? And that was more than one point so look forward to my pie........
Conjoined pedant here. In 1972 Groups 5( Sports Cars) and 6 (Prototype Sports Cars) from 1971 became Group 5, known as Sports Cars,Group 5, however cars of 1971 Group 5 were allowed to continue in the new Group 5 even if they did not comply with the 1972 Group 5 regulations-are you following this?
The 1972 Gp 5 regulations required, from 1st April, that ''an opaque and non flexible part of the coachwork must extend downwards behind the rear wheelsof the car to 20cm minimumfrom the ground and cover the entire width of the rear wheels and tyres''
The waiver for the opening in the bodywork, 1972 required symmetry, was not extended so all cars had to have a symmetrical non covered opening for 1972.
Shall I go on?
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Old 7 Jan 2009, 18:13 (Ref:2367182)   #32
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At the same time the 5-litre limit for G5 was reduced to 3-litre and the requirement for production of 25 was removed as everyone had been cheating anyway so what was the point.
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Old 8 Jan 2009, 16:33 (Ref:2367726)   #33
Dan Rear
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Dan Rear should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield
I think the change was to mandate symmetry in plan view, after all they had always had two seats, and of course the driver had always to sit to one side of the centre line for it to be a sports car - this thanks to Roger Penske....
Xerex Special????
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Old 9 Jan 2009, 22:54 (Ref:2368590)   #34
driftwood
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in 1972 1 B21 car run in Japan
18 Hiroshi Fushida / J Chevron B21P Ford

1973 2 B21 cars running

1 Hiroshi Fushida Chevron B21P Ford
27 Jiro Yoneyama Chevron B21 Ford I assume this car is imported
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 15:46 (Ref:2369425)   #35
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Whilst I am impressed by so much 'data' from original news reports being quoted and the vast amount of research being carried out to 'out' the facts, and given personal memory fades with the passing years I have not quite gone ga ga yet and add.
Peter Smith & David Welpton assembled their own B21 with a new chassis number 1 using some parts they aquired from the wreck of Peter Humble's B16/19. Peter Smith collected the parts from Lupton Towers Kirkby Lonsdale, the then family home of the Humbles where the 16/19 and subsequently the 21 were housed, and the chassis; the ex B16 spyder was cut up and disposed of via the weekly bin collection.
The 'deal' between Nick May and the Humbles never materialised and standard FVC of which two were owned were the power units used, Nick only driving for two WCM events Spa 1000Ks [6th overall, DSJ Motorsport page 610 June 1972]and The Ring 1000Ks DNS. Motorsport gives the Humble/May entry as B19, Confused! The chassis was aquired from Arch Motors between end of 19 production and start of 21 production, but incorperated all 21 updates. At the end of the 72 season after Paris 1000Ks at Rouen the car and all spares were delivered to Bob Howlings for sale, I believe it subsequently went to the USofA, where it now has probably become 4 cars!
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 17:28 (Ref:2369478)   #36
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I am getting confused! Group 6 were prototype cars and were allowed to run without the wheels fully enclosed and the 2litre series were run as group 6. Group 4 became group5 and to comply wheels had to be fully enclosed and headlights, on Humbles car I made the headlight recesses oval, Tony Galland made the Red Rose cars retangular which became the works standard. Narrow strips were also added to the rear wheel arches as slicks protruded outside of the bodywork, this was remedied on later rear bodywork by Specalised Mouldings. I am sure this work was carried out before the 72 Spa 1000Ks. 2 front sections were used one with lights one without and the rear wheel spats removed for 2ltr series. From memory John Boot, Burton's man fitted the first adjustable spoiler to the rear bodywork, and of course all followed suit.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 18:05 (Ref:2369509)   #37
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Group 5 until the end of 1971 were 25-minimum sports cars (so B16 for example); group 6 was sports prototypes (B16S). From 1972 they were merged as a new Gp 5 with no minimum.
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Old 11 Jan 2009, 22:38 (Ref:2369642)   #38
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by allenbrown
Group 5 until the end of 1971 were 25-minimum sports cars (so B16 for example); group 6 was sports prototypes (B16S). From 1972 they were merged as a new Gp 5 with no minimum.
Memory fading & confused; so when did Gp5 replace Gp4? I thought it was the end of 71 when the 512's & 917's were thrown out.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 08:11 (Ref:2369758)   #39
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
512s and 917s were in the pre-71 Group 5. The new 1972 Group 5 regulations introduced the 3-litre limit.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 08:58 (Ref:2369787)   #40
driftwood
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If you had the 1-2 million to buy 1 of these cars would it be the 917 or 512 that sits in your garage!
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 10:08 (Ref:2369821)   #41
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We had a 917 [Chassis 23 the film car] till a certain gent sold it in preference for a green roller skate. Have to get the adrenalin kick from a certain 'green' one when it is bought out now and again to play.
Group 4 ceased in 1970 for sports race cars and correct Gp5 & 6 replaced with 25 cars in a 12 month period to be produced for Gp5 appendix J with a max of 3litres introduced for 1972. At the end of 1976 all sports race cars were placed in Gp5 and Gp4 GT cars were reduced from 1000 to 400 models in a 12 month period. Info willie whatever encyclo.

Last edited by p261brm; 12 Jan 2009 at 10:11.
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 10:20 (Ref:2369827)   #42
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1973 FIA Year Book states ...........

"Cars of the former Group 5 which benefit from an FIA recognition may continue to run as sports cars, even if they do not comply with the new minimal inside dimensions. Equally cars of the former Group 6 (sports prototype), certified by the National Sporting Authority of the country of construction, to have been manufactured before 1st January 1972 may continue to compete under the new Group 5 rules.
However, the symmetry of the cockpit opening for open cars must in all cases be observed."

My favourite regulation states "... if no windshield is provided for, windshield-wipers are not compulsory". The FIA masters of the bleeding obvious!
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Old 12 Jan 2009, 10:53 (Ref:2369841)   #43
driftwood
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The FIA masters of the bleeding obvious!It is worrying- no wondre there are problems in motorsport with the heirachy

on another note having gone through 1972 73 and now doing 1974 AS adverts it does strike me that very few B21 cars where in UK with a couple of B19 cars "updated" to b21
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Old 13 Jan 2009, 18:07 (Ref:2370780)   #44
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I now have access to B21 records and can connect these first cars to chassis numbers:

A. Brian Robinson (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-4
B. Trevor Twaites (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-2
C. Pete Smith/Dave Wepton (debut Croft 12 Mar 1972) = B21-72-3
D. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: John Hine (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8
E. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Jose Juncadella (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8
F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (presumably a B19)
G. Canon Cameras: John Burton (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-12A
Canon Cameras: Bob Wollek (not ready in time for Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-14
Max Olivar (not ready in time for Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-6

Numbers 5, 9, 10, 10A and 12 had gone to Italy, Switzerland or the US so I'm sure we'll see them later.
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 00:43 (Ref:2371041)   #45
driftwood
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so what about these cars?
b21-72-1 is Tucket Fletcher car?
B21 BMW M12 for dieter quester is 15?
Mauro Nesti has B21 on the mountain races in Italy
B21 goes to japan in 72


E. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Jose Juncadella (debut Paul Ricard 9 Apr 1972) = B21-72-7 or B21-72-8
F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (presumably a B19)How do you each that conclusion?
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 08:46 (Ref:2371167)   #46
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by driftwood
F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (presumably a B19)How do you each that conclusion?
Motoring News descibed it as a B21-bodied B10. Pay attention drifty!
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbrown
Paul Ricard 2-litre Sportscar Championship Round 1 9 Apr 1972

F. Red Rose Racing/Montjuich Tergal: Niki Bosch (a B21-bodied B19 so maybe 'X' or even 'O')
Not sure about the Japanese B21 yet. The Fletcher car was a very late 1971 B19 but then appears again as B21-72-1. Two cars? I doubt it.
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 09:20 (Ref:2371196)   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbrown
Motoring News descibed it as a B21-bodied B10. Pay attention drifty!
B19?
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 09:37 (Ref:2371208)   #48
driftwood
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allen trying to cause disarray

Tucket / Fletcher car is not 2 cars its 1 car
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Old 14 Jan 2009, 10:14 (Ref:2371223)   #49
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allenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridallenbrown should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
My point precisely. Fletcher's name appears on the end of the B19 list (B19-71-31) and also on the start of the B21 list (B21-72-1). That doesn't mean he had two cars - he had one car with two alternative chassis numbers.
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Old 16 Jan 2009, 17:52 (Ref:2372856)   #50
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by allenbrown
My point precisely. Fletcher's name appears on the end of the B19 list (B19-71-31) and also on the start of the B21 list (B21-72-1). That doesn't mean he had two cars - he had one car with two alternative chassis numbers.
Now the truth is begining to shine through Andrew Fletcher and Willie Tucket were partners, still are; chassis plates were changed, 16's became 19's,21's and 23's there the saga ended. Because 16's suddenly [you know that town where Frank Sinatra planned to assassinate the presi of the US of A] became worth a lot of gilt, those retained 19's 21's & 23's reverted to their original form. The gaps so left were filled by the unscrupulous out to make a fast buck, at least those cars that went up the scale and reverted; retained at least some resemblance of originality. As far as press quotes are concerned re numbers they can not be blamed, I for one are as guilty of the miss-conception as others. The ATA Board of Trade Carnet is at the centre of deciept. With quite for those tmes. large sums of the folding having to be deposited to obtain said carnet and the procedure to obtain the document, particularly in Espania where the General required it in Spanish instead of either English or French; cars were in England appeared in Spain. France, Germany and so on, many stories mostly true should perhaps be told of those halcyon days when racing WAS racing if only for the next round of the fight with custom officials. The Red Rose Tergal drivers were John Bridges John Hine Jose Juncadella and Niki Bosch as a norm.

Last edited by p261brm; 16 Jan 2009 at 17:55.
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