Is it time to equalise engines?

[old man]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Bring Back The DFV.....

I thought of that era, same engines, same gearboxes, same tyres excellent racing but chassis development was in its infancy, now all the margins for development are smaller. Ferrari were the exception of course

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Senna-F1God

Actually would be up to the teams to decide how to integrate that system (mandatory) but guess what engineers would end up...by having traction on FOUR wheels instead of just two..

Wouldn't the electric motors add to the weight of the wheels, making it more difficult to remove during a pitstop? Also where are the motors going to go, there's not a lot of room, especially the real wheels now they are using the blown-diffuser?

I don't think this idea has been very well thought out.

[P38 in workshop]

Can you imagine what Enzo Ferrari would have said to the notion that engines should not be developed?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by old man

I thought of that era, same engines, same gearboxes, same tyres excellent racing but chassis development was in its infancy, now all the margins for development are smaller. Ferrari were the exception of course

Ferrari had their 12-cyl Boxer engine and Alfa-Romeo occaisionally made an appearance with MARCH, more notably with Brabham and then with their own car.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by old man

I thought of that era, same engines, same gearboxes, same tyres excellent racing but chassis development was in its infancy, now all the margins for development are smaller. Ferrari were the exception of course

And don't forget the screaming Matra engines in the Ligiers....

[wnut]

Renault also brought the V6 turbo - did not in for about three years - but then...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by phoenix

And don't forget the screaming Matra engines in the Ligiers....

I'll never forget that sound; a classic V12.

I first heard that engine at the BA 1000 Ks at Brands in '74, when Matra-Simca raced their MS670C.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'll never forget that sound; a classic V12.

I first heard that engine at the BA 1000 Ks at Brands in '74, when Matra-Simca raced their MS670C.

Now that was music. Sounded very good in the F1 too! Make your ears bleed!

The BRM H-16 and the excellent BRM V12 were great engines too, did not sound as good as the Matra though!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Now that was music. Sounded very good in the F1 too! Make your ears bleed!

The BRM H-16 and the excellent BRM V12 were great engines too, did not sound as good as the Matra though!

I forgot about BRM. There certainly was a lot of variety back in the '70s, pitty they don't allow engine manufacturers more freedom, e.g. a 3.0 litre engine but the number of cylinders is up to the manufacturer. It would also make chassis design less rigid, in order to accomodate the different engines but obviuosly money is at the root of all of this.

[old man]

These latest posts illustrate the variety that we used to enjoy and I am sure more freedom could be allowed within some different basic parameters, perhaps based in fuel consumption to reflect modern concerns

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by old man

These latest posts illustrate the variety that we used to enjoy and I am sure more freedom could be allowed within some different basic parameters, perhaps based in fuel consumption to reflect modern concerns

In principle I do agree with all of this, I am totally against all of this equalisation nonsense.
If we equalise engine power, chassis, aero driver ability and lap times etc., then there's not a lot of scope for actual racing is there? (OK, I am being rather extreme here, but think that exaggereation is necessary to make my point...)

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

If we equalise engine power, chassis, aero driver ability and lap times etc., then there's not a lot of scope for actual racing is there? (OK, I am being rather extreme here, but think that exaggereation is necessary to make my point...)

If that happens then F1 will essentially becomes a spec series, so no I don't think you are being extreme.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

In principle I do agree with all of this, I am totally against all of this equalisation nonsense.
If we equalise engine power, chassis, aero driver ability and lap times etc., then there's not a lot of scope for actual racing is there? (OK, I am being rather extreme here, but think that exaggereation is necessary to make my point...)

You forgot the other disease - spec circuits!

I enjoyed incognito!

[Wims]

Originally Posted by old man

These latest posts illustrate the variety that we used to enjoy and I am sure more freedom could be allowed within some different basic parameters, perhaps based in fuel consumption to reflect modern concerns

Fuel consumption restrictions is very bad, we dont want cars to go around slow just because they'll run out of fuel if they add more right foot. But then again you could argue for that we already have fuel consumption restrictions, since the teams short fill for the race so they can run lower ride heights during quali, and we'll end up with team bosses claiming that "fuel is critical" over the radio. Oh well, maybe fuel consumption restrictions wouldnt be so bad after all

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Senna-F1God

NO!!!

It´s time to let F1 be free and push for a new start for engine development:

We ALL want 1.0 littre turbos unrestricted that will have to last the whole season untouched. They would achieve 700bhp easely...and would be based on roadcar blocks.

Running Biofuels...with electric motors on the four wheels, as truly way of Hybridization. The energy would have to be stored without limits in Big battery packs installed on the splitter skid.

Then racing would be REAL: manufacturers would find a perfect platform for enviroment friendly techologies relevant to car production...cars would be harder to drive and it would be easier to make mistaques, therefore FANS would see a much improved SHOW, with TONS of overtaking moves.

We ALL want 1.0 littre turbos unrestricted that will have to last the whole season untouched. They would achieve 700bhp easely...and would be based on roadcar blocks.
Um, no, we don't. Some of us still want teams to be able to run 3.5l V8,s, 3.0lV10,s, 2.0l turbos, or whatver else they think they can shoehorn in. What we don't want is another one-make spec series. There are already plenty of those further down the ladder, and the majority produce exactly the sort of soul-less, overtaking free racing that makes Bahrain look exciting. F1 never has been and never should be about equalization in any form. I agree costs need cutting but this is not the way to do it. And has been pointed out Mr Horner has already had one chance to get his engine in order. This is just sour grapes imo.

Running Biofuels...with electric motors on the four wheels, as truly way of Hybridization. The energy would have to be stored without limits in Big battery packs installed on the splitter skid.
Bio fuels I can live with, but I'm not sure the whole electric motor thing would work. Huge banks of batteies means a change in the weight distribution of the car, which means the smaller teams that don't have the time and money to spend on chassis development will suffer. There's also the question of electric motors. The only place I can think of to put them would be on the wheel hubs. Wheel tehers can fail as it is at the moment. As a marshal I don't fancy having to duck to avoid an electric motor assembly coming at me at silly miles an hour...

[Yannick]

I'd rather think it's time to allow the returnees of Cosworth to upgrade their engine.

[tblincoe]

In an effort to re-focus this topic; does anyone have any ideas on how the FIA could equalize the engines? What criteria would be considered?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

In an effort to re-focus this topic; does anyone have any ideas on how the FIA could equalize the engines? What criteria would be considered?

I don't think they've condidered it, which is why Christian Horner has brought it to everyone's attention.

[TRuss]

In the case of Senna God's wishfull thinking world you wouldn't see large amounts of batteries...unless required by rules. Given any sort of freedom for energy storage you would probably see super capacitors, flywheels...anything lighter and more effecient than batteries. As far as where to mount motors...I don't think you would see them driving the front wheels at all. I don't see F1 ever allowing that. The motors would probably assist the driveline as done with the KERS cars. If they did allow motors to drive the front wheels then you wouldn't see them mounted on the hub assembly or anywhere inside the wheel. That produces too much weight moving up and down needing to be controlled. Maybe not a big deal in a road car, but no way in Hell in F1. The rules would probably have to allow for wide noses, probably fairing the front suspension some. Motors would be mounted as far inboard as possible. Like the rear brakes of an Jag XKE. Bio fuels are just seemingly a terrible idea all around and this isn't the place to discuss the many reasons why.

F1 has lost relevance to road going cars long ago (except for Ferrari and the Williams flywheel that may find it's way into a Porsche) and I see no point for F1 to try to reclaim this. The fans on this forum and some others are truly interested in the techincal side of the sport, and most of you have no interest anything but the oh so dead V12. But so many are not. The drivers are the true stars and the reason why a large percentage watch. So keeping this in mind what difference does it make what the regulations are? It has been made clear to me for well over a decade now that the FIA doesn't care what the fan like you or me is interested in. So I quit worrying about it some time ago. I really don't care. I watch most of the races most of the time. Some qualifying from time to time. Whatever. I've got to a point where I enjoy sports cars much much more. Sure they aren't as quick, but there is pleny of diversity and the possibilty of some freedom and to see something new. F1 needs to figure out how to do that again. Getting rid of the engine freeze would help a little. Even if nothing else changed. My ideal F1 engine scenario would be something like a specific displacement, probably something smaller 2.0 liters?, turbos but limited to spec, and a fuel allotment for the race. I do like engine allotment for the season too. I'd keep that. I know longer see a need for grenades.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TRuss

F1 has lost relevance to road going cars long ago (except for Ferrari and the Williams flywheel that may find it's way into a Porsche) and I see no point for F1 to try to reclaim this. The fans on this forum and some others are truly interested in the techincal side of the sport, and most of you have no interest anything but the oh so dead V12. But so many are not. The drivers are the true stars and the reason why a large percentage watch. So keeping this in mind what difference does it make what the regulations are? It has been made clear to me for well over a decade now that the FIA doesn't care what the fan like you or me is interested in. So I quit worrying about it some time ago. I really don't care. I watch most of the races most of the time. Some qualifying from time to time. Whatever. I've got to a point where I enjoy sports cars much much more. Sure they aren't as quick, but there is pleny of diversity and the possibilty of some freedom and to see something new. F1 needs to figure out how to do that again. Getting rid of the engine freeze would help a little. Even if nothing else changed. My ideal F1 engine scenario would be something like a specific displacement, probably something smaller 2.0 liters?, turbos but limited to spec, and a fuel allotment for the race. I do like engine allotment for the season too. I'd keep that. I know longer see a need for grenades.

I never thought F1 had any relevance to road cars, except for some vague connection with engine design and engine management systems.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I never thought F1 had any relevance to road cars, except for some vague connection with engine design and engine management systems.

Spot on! Why should need to be road relevant, it's a race car, and has zero to do with any production car..

[TRuss]

That's exactly what I meant. I wouldn't say that the connection has always been so vague though. It has become that way...even nonexistant. And I prefer it that way. The whole point of F1 should be who can go the fastest. And if the technology makes for a better road car, then great. But that should never be the goal. That's the way it has always worked with F1. For sports cars it's the other way around. Manufacturers are developing new road technologies on the track. Funny thing, this is what is making sports car racing more appealing to me. Not because it's improving road cars, because I don't care about modern road cars. I like the oldies. But because it allows for so many different and new possibilities on the track. V8s, flat sixes, I4s, V12s, V10s, diesels, petrol, bio stuff that does no good, hybrids, some rotaries here and there. Open cars and closed cars, Ferraris to Fords, to Corvettes and BMWs. Protos and GTs.

F1 is stagnant and bland by comparison and needs to fix itself. It needs to allow some real innovation that we grab on to. Not just another diffuser or side fence or an added strake or some other inane detail. It needs a total overhaul, a complete new look and idea. Give the engineers and designers a little freedom. Not much. Things do need to be kept under control. I know there are some true geniuses in the F1 world and I want to see a glimpse of what they see.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Bring Back The DFV.....

Why not run a spec motor.. hardly any point in retuning specs so they can be the same as each other.... is there?

Does equalising an engine in RBR parlance mean that Mr Vettel gets the updated kit and Mr Webber gets the engine of the Clio rentacar?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TRuss

That's exactly what I meant....

Fairenough

Originally Posted by TRuss

F1 is stagnant and bland by comparison and needs to fix itself. It needs to allow some real innovation that we grab on to. Not just another diffuser or side fence or an added strake or some other inane detail. It needs a total overhaul, a complete new look and idea. Give the engineers and designers a little freedom. Not much. Things do need to be kept under control. I know there are some true geniuses in the F1 world and I want to see a glimpse of what they see.

I certainly agree with you on that point, however I see the main problem with F1 and the lack of innovation being down to the current economic climate and the budget cap that's been imposed and hence the 'spec' nature of F1

On the other side of the pond they are saying the same thing about IndyCar and how that has become stagnant because it is now a spec series; no variety, just lots of Dallaras, with Honda engines. Everyone would like to see a return to multiple chassis and engines and there is some hope IndyCar will open it's doors to all comers but there's doubt because of the current economic climate.

[TRuss]

This proves my original point. Most people really only care about the drivers. Just look at the threads on the first page of the F1 forum. Why even worry about the regs? It doesn't matter to most.