Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24 Nov 2014, 18:49 (Ref:3478296)   #1
bauble
Veteran
 
bauble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Potton, far from the madding crowd.
Posts: 9,599
bauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebauble will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Selfish or Cowardly Mercedes?

This year Mercedes have proved to have the most powerful engine, and have run away with both the Constructors and Drivers titles because of it. Aided true by a very good chassis.

With an engine freeze neither Ferrari or Renault are able to catch-up and Mercedes refuse to allow any changes.

If they were confident of their abilities and had the best interests of the sport in mind, as they claim, surely they should not hang on to their advantage, and be prepared to accept the challenge of other manufacturers?

The very idea of any sort of freeze is completely against the ethos of
Formula 1,which is supposed to be about technological advance.

One can understand Mercedes not wanting to relinquish their advantage, but in recent years when Red Bull were dominant, there was no restriction on other teams catching-up if they could. Today the advantage is basically set in stone.

One more strike against the 'pinnacle of the sport'.
bauble is offline  
__________________
When asking; "Is he joking?" Best assume yes!
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 19:27 (Ref:3478320)   #2
miatanut
Veteran
 
miatanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
United States
Seattle
Posts: 1,229
miatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
While I thought the restrictions on the development of the power unit (right after making a huge change to the spec), was stupid from the first I learned of it, that was the rules everybody entered the competition under. To depart from that would be changing the rules in the middle of the game, which Mercedes would be right to be upset about.
miatanut is offline  
__________________
Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens.
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3478325)   #3
ascarracinguk
Veteran
 
ascarracinguk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location:
Infront of my computer
Posts: 3,909
ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!ascarracinguk has a real shot at the championship!
It's neither selfish nor cowardly. Mercedes did the best job and invested heavily over the winter for themselves and their customers!

Would you expect red bull to give away their chassis secrets to Mercedes over the last few years? Or brawn give away their double diffuser for free?

Christian Horner was the first to jump in and say f1 isn't a charity one the bigger teams shouldn't give the smaller teams money, and therefore an advantage, why should Mercedes be as charitable to red bull?
ascarracinguk is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3478326)   #4
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,716
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
the rules always get changed in the middle of the game...that might be the only certainty in F1.

imo Merc just need to be given proper incentive and/or the proper leverage needs to be found to get them to change their position. and not just Merc, teams like Williams and Force India need to be given an incentive as well.

i suspect that a compromise will be found but it will be late in the game giving Merc and their customer teams a chance to build up some points for the early part of the season.

makes no sense to give the other teams the whole winter to catch up, no point in letting them bring updated engines to the winter tests...allowing them develop over the course of next season seems like a fair compromise to me...with the added bonus of giving us a chance to see in season development back in F1.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 19:52 (Ref:3478333)   #5
Teretonga
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,346
Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!Teretonga is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by miatanut View Post
While I thought the restrictions on the development of the power unit (right after making a huge change to the spec), was stupid from the first I learned of it, that was the rules everybody entered the competition under. To depart from that would be changing the rules in the middle of the game, which Mercedes would be right to be upset about.
I thought it would end up like this because there was no room for anyone to provide an equaliser so the problems were going to be problems all year.

However Mercedes have done the best job. If Honda have an advantage in 2015 will Mercedes change their mind?
The rules are the rules they signed up to but they always want to change them to suit themselves. Mercedes is not selfish nor cowardly. they are in a competition and you play by the rules.... That is what they are doing. Competing. They just did it better in 2014 than anyone else did.

You wouldn't give your competitors an advantage by changing the rules in their favour in any other competition so why here?

We would like more equal engines but not a cost/development war so any change to the rules has to incremental and very carefully considered.
Teretonga is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 19:54 (Ref:3478335)   #6
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
F1 teams are all selfish.

If this was a functional sport, the governing body would mediate a fair resolution in the long term interest of all the teams and the sport. But we don't have that with this sport. It's all backroom deals, secret agreements and outbreaks of noisy tantrums from jealous stakeholders.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 20:38 (Ref:3478350)   #7
bravo
Racer
 
bravo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
England
North East England
Posts: 390
bravo should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
All the teams have a number of points they can put towards changing their engines - maybe they don't have enough points to drastically re-design their engine for nest year, but there isn't a total engine freeze.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ines-of-today/
bravo is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 21:04 (Ref:3478363)   #8
miatanut
Veteran
 
miatanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
United States
Seattle
Posts: 1,229
miatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravo View Post
All the teams have a number of points they can put towards changing their engines - maybe they don't have enough points to drastically re-design their engine for nest year, but there isn't a total engine freeze.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/...ines-of-today/
If that is correct, they can do quite a lot between now and next season.
miatanut is offline  
__________________
Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens.
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 22:09 (Ref:3478384)   #9
Knowlesy
20KPINAL
 
Knowlesy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
Knowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameKnowlesy will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
I am sure if Renault were in this position they'd welcome an engine unfreeze with great fanfare.

I have never liked the engine freeze tbf, but the teams knew what they were signing up to. Can only blame themselves for doing such a crap job.
Knowlesy is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 22:13 (Ref:3478387)   #10
JamesH
Veteran
 
JamesH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
United Kingdom
Christchurch, Cambs, UK
Posts: 2,126
JamesH has a real shot at the championship!JamesH has a real shot at the championship!JamesH has a real shot at the championship!JamesH has a real shot at the championship!JamesH has a real shot at the championship!JamesH has a real shot at the championship!
Since Honda are entering the fray, they have a year of development more than all the other engine manufacturers, I presume. Surely that is a little unfair.

Or have I misunderstood, and the Honda engine was frozen at the same time?
JamesH is offline  
__________________
Locost #54 Boldly Leaping where no car has gone before. And then being T-boned. Damn.
Survivor of the 2008 2CV 24h!! 2 engines, one accident, 76mph and rain.
Quote
Old 24 Nov 2014, 22:25 (Ref:3478392)   #11
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
Funny the look on some of the bosses faces if Mclaren-Honda swept the first six races.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 00:34 (Ref:3478420)   #12
miatanut
Veteran
 
miatanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
United States
Seattle
Posts: 1,229
miatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesH View Post
Since Honda are entering the fray, they have a year of development more than all the other engine manufacturers, I presume. Surely that is a little unfair.

Or have I misunderstood, and the Honda engine was frozen at the same time?
Jumping in later, they have fewer "tokens" available to fix what they determine needs fixing their first year out.

If they have to go to something like this, I think this was a slick way to do it. Sure, later entrants get the advantage of seeing some of what worked and didn't but a lot of it is super-secret intake and combustion chamber design or other goodies you can't know without getting your hands on a power unit (unlikely) or poaching talent from another manufacturer (more likely but possibly still very difficult). Probably it's a smaller advantage than it appears and the later you enter, the less opportunity you have to fix your mistakes.
miatanut is offline  
__________________
Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens.
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 01:08 (Ref:3478428)   #13
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Wonder where F1 would be now if Colin Chapman had enforced his exclusive use agreement on the Cosworth DFV ....


"Funny the look on some of the bosses faces if Mclaren-Honda swept the first six races." Paradise City



Bet the Honda boys have had a pretty good look at the Merc engine!
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 01:22 (Ref:3478429)   #14
miatanut
Veteran
 
miatanut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
United States
Seattle
Posts: 1,229
miatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridmiatanut should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Bet the Honda boys have had a pretty good look at the Merc engine!
A good look at the outside, but the engine itself is sealed and I'm sure Mercedes keeps a short leash on their engines.

I remember a big controversy in CART when Pat Patrick supposedly let a Chevy engine get into the hands Alfa Romeo when they were developing an engine for CART. Probably that's no longer possible, with Lojacks inside them or something.
miatanut is offline  
__________________
Just give them some safety rules, limit the fuel (to control the speeds), drop the green flag, and see what happens.
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 01:35 (Ref:3478432)   #15
Tucky
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
United Kingdom
Brighton
Posts: 437
Tucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTucky should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
F1 teams are all selfish.

If this was a functional sport, the governing body would mediate a fair resolution in the long term interest of all the teams and the sport. But we don't have that with this sport. It's all backroom deals, secret agreements and outbreaks of noisy tantrums from jealous stakeholders.
I agree with your first statement. All sports teams are incredibly selfish, otherwise they wouldn't succeed, any team that would give up such an advantage would be seen as idiots.

As for the second point, the problem with mediating in the long term interest of the teams is that the short term interest of CVC seems to come first 90% of the time.

In F1's defence about the backroom deals and secret agreements, IMO I don't think they're deliberately trying to create an unfair sport, more that they don't need to announce every single decision they make. Deals and talks are taking place all the team but I don't want to know about every single little thing.
Tucky is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 02:29 (Ref:3478440)   #16
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tucky View Post
I agree with your first statement. All sports teams are incredibly selfish, otherwise they wouldn't succeed, any team that would give up such an advantage would be seen as idiots.

As for the second point, the problem with mediating in the long term interest of the teams is that the short term interest of CVC seems to come first 90% of the time.

In F1's defence about the backroom deals and secret agreements, IMO I don't think they're deliberately trying to create an unfair sport, more that they don't need to announce every single decision they make. Deals and talks are taking place all the team but I don't want to know about every single little thing.
Eccelstone really has ran a bizarre mystery dictatorship that's peculiar in sporting terms. Transparency is woeful, the governing body is a servile institution compared to peers in other sports, prize money is a state secret, Eccelstone is given to signing secret bilateral agreements with teams in crude divide and rule strategies and even the fact that Ferrari has a veto on the rules was something that had to be leaked a few years ago IIRC. Eccelstone has run it his way and that way is truly a bizarre way.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Old 25 Nov 2014, 04:40 (Ref:3478455)   #17
fredd1
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 197
fredd1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
[QUOTE=miatanut;3478429]A good look at the outside, but the engine itself is sealed and I'm sure Mercedes keeps a short leash on their engines.


Exactly. I'm surprised that at season's end people are still speculating this sort of line. Merc's procedure was spelled out at commencement.
fredd1 is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2014, 08:45 (Ref:3478800)   #18
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bauble View Post
This year Mercedes have proved to have the most powerful engine, and have run away with both the Constructors and Drivers titles because of it. Aided true by a very good chassis.

With an engine freeze neither Ferrari or Renault are able to catch-up and Mercedes refuse to allow any changes.

If they were confident of their abilities and had the best interests of the sport in mind, as they claim, surely they should not hang on to their advantage, and be prepared to accept the challenge of other manufacturers?

The very idea of any sort of freeze is completely against the ethos of
Formula 1,which is supposed to be about technological advance.

One can understand Mercedes not wanting to relinquish their advantage, but in recent years when Red Bull were dominant, there was no restriction on other teams catching-up if they could. Today the advantage is basically set in stone.

One more strike against the 'pinnacle of the sport'.
While I disagree with every aspect of the engine freeze the "term never give a sucker an even break" springs to mind. They would be out of their mind to agree to anything that gets the field closer because if one of the teams caught or passed them in engine development MB would then be subject to the same problem of not being able to catch up.

With the problem that the field had against RB in the Vettel years the field if they had been clever enough had no impediments placed in their way to develop aero equal the RB apart from someone clever enough to implement it and money to do so. Two very different scenarios. Horner is very two faced when it comes down to stuff like this.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Nov 2014, 08:57 (Ref:3478804)   #19
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
Eccelstone is given to signing secret bilateral agreements with teams in crude divide and rule strategies and even the fact that Ferrari has a veto on the rules was something that had to be leaked a few years ago IIRC. Eccelstone has run it his way and that way is truly a bizarre way.
Far from being crude it was a well thought out strategy for a lot or reasons.

It stopped anyone trying to start a parallel series in competition as they could not harvest the top teams from his series

It guaranteed that the teams could not just shut up shop and go home as happened some years ago

It gave him a period of stability and ensured the top teams were always there and he could negotiate with promoters knowing that

What happens if there is a blow up and things start getting legal is anyone's guess. I would reckon that RB for instance if they wanted out would find a way and take him on in any court he wanted to name.

The other problem that will occur is when the contract period ends some teams will leave and there will be big gaps. I don't think that will be BE's problem though. Some of the thinking behind the contracts could be it gives the sport some stability during a period of handover which can't be far away. If the new management is not to the teams liking they have to either lump it or find a way out.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Dec 2015, 22:35 (Ref:3596494)   #20
wolfhound
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Ireland
Posts: 3,547
wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
There is a court case looming between Mercedes and one of their employee's. It is reported that one of the group leaders in the engine division handed in his notice as he was on his way to Maranello at the end of his contract.
After that he was redployed to the DTM section and had his Laptop wiped clean so that he did not have any F1 data on it. He was not allowed any access to the F1 part of the operation. It seems he subsequently got hold of more recent F1 data and tried to conceal this.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122187
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...ound-engineer/

I wonder where this will end up? Probably with some lawyers lining their pockets.
wolfhound is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Dec 2015, 01:11 (Ref:3596531)   #21
Trev Campbell
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 741
Trev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTrev Campbell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
While I disagree with every aspect of the engine freeze the "term never give a sucker an even break" springs to mind. They would be out of their mind to agree to anything that gets the field closer because if one of the teams caught or passed them in engine development MB would then be subject to the same problem of not being able to catch up.
How times change !!! Ford-Lotus-Cosworth developed a world beating engine. Worked out it was so dominant that it could ruin the sport so made it available to everyone !!!!
Trev Campbell is offline  
__________________
'Son, when you participate in sporthing events, it's not whether you win or lose... it's how drunk you get.' Homer J Simpson.
Quote
Old 10 Dec 2015, 10:37 (Ref:3596803)   #22
maximus
Veteran
 
maximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
United Kingdom
Yorkshire
Posts: 1,575
maximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmaximus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
There is a court case looming between Mercedes and one of their employee's. It is reported that one of the group leaders in the engine division handed in his notice as he was on his way to Maranello at the end of his contract.
After that he was redployed to the DTM section and had his Laptop wiped clean so that he did not have any F1 data on it. He was not allowed any access to the F1 part of the operation. It seems he subsequently got hold of more recent F1 data and tried to conceal this.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122187
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...ound-engineer/

I wonder where this will end up? Probably with some lawyers lining their pockets.
He's a muppet though if any of this is true. It's a serious offence he's commited for any industry.
maximus is offline  
__________________
#teamyorkshire
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2015, 18:41 (Ref:3598639)   #23
old man
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
England
UK
Posts: 2,007
old man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridold man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridold man should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev Campbell View Post
How times change !!! Ford-Lotus-Cosworth developed a world beating engine. Worked out it was so dominant that it could ruin the sport so made it available to everyone !!!!
old man is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Dec 2015, 01:29 (Ref:3598694)   #24
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trev Campbell View Post
How times change !!! Ford-Lotus-Cosworth developed a world beating engine. Worked out it was so dominant that it could ruin the sport so made it available to everyone !!!!
You're right Trev.

Mercedes simply want to be seen as dominating the pinnacle of racing.

They see F1 as a promo for their hybrid technology and nothing else.
Furthermore the less they have to spend on maintaining their position the better.

Mercedes have no interest in the sporting aspect of F1, and no interest in its continued good health, they are merely using Bernie's circus to promote their hybrid technology. They care nothing for F1!


Chapman on the other hand was heavily invested in F1 and knew that he was dependent on the growth and health of F1. A position all the non manufacturing teams should realise that they are in and adopt!
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 19 Dec 2015, 01:35 (Ref:3598695)   #25
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximus View Post
He's a muppet though if any of this is true. It's a serious offence he's commited for any industry.
The stupidity of the way this offence was committed by an apparently intelligent and technically savvy person could lead one to suspect a set up, could it not?
wnut is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mercedes F1Pete Formula One 1 7 Apr 2009 13:26
New DTM Mercedes. Speeddemon555 Touring Car Racing 11 8 Mar 2002 23:32
Totally Selfish But .......................... Peter Mallett Motorsport History 3 5 Jan 2001 22:24


All times are GMT. The time now is 13:51.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.