Formula Renault BARC - Page 5

Bob Pearson · 5 May 2005, 08:32 (Ref:1293478)

Steve, as a golden rule, in the case of any doubt run the car as designed, and that is with Michelins with a lot of camber, 3-4 deg is usual. The cars are normally run stiff to get the best from the tyres. You should be able to bounce the car a little at the back by putting your two hands in the middle of the wing and pushing down as hard as you can and when you let the car off the jack it it should sink on the suspension by about 10mm at the top of the wing.. It is possible that the rear of the car is too high or the front too soft or one of many combonations of damper settings or spring strengths are upsetting it. Are the spins on turn in, mid corner or accelerating out of the corner?
I know the car you are driving, I had many races with it when it was driven by Karum Ahmed and I was in a 95 Swift, so I know that it does work. I doubt that it could ever be a front runner, but it was certainly mid-field in the days when BARC Renault was very competitive.

steveng · 5 May 2005, 08:52 (Ref:1293487)

Thanks Bob, The spins were mid corner, without any warning, I managed to stop them by slow in faster out and turning in very late to try and avoid the turn in understeer and exit oversteer. I am used to a very soft car, my last car had loads of mechanical grip but was a bit of a buttock-clencher in fast corners. It is difficult to describe but you just know when a car is gripping the road on a corner exit, I used to be able to feel the grip coming in with a little bit of rear end slide as I got the power down. The Martini as it is currently set up doesn't have that feel and an bites without any warning as a consequence I don't feel like leaning on it and I'm slow. I know the car is never going to be a winner but I am happy to qualify 15th-20th in a 25 car field and have a race with some other like-minded old farts like me. I used to be able to do that in my Vauxhall, I only got rid of it because it was just worn out ( and I bent the chassis when I arrived at someone else's accident and hit a spinner at Snetterton last year). The Martini seemed quite lightly used and a nicely engineered car. I'm sure I can make it work given some testing and the right tyres. Thanks for the advice.

Bob Pearson · 5 May 2005, 09:12 (Ref:1293502)

It's always dangerous to start diagnosing from a distance, but it is probably somewhere in spring strengths, spring pre-load, ride height and/or damper settings particularily re-bound. Once again I strongly suggest you back track to the correct tyres and get it to work on them before introducing another variable.
If you fancy the drive to Oxforshire we can do you a couple of sets of part worns from last season for a tenner a tyre.

steveng · 5 May 2005, 12:19 (Ref:1293611)

Thanks Bob, I'll take you up on your offer of tyres if I cannot get something more local. I've just taken the left sided suspension off the car to have some jigs made up for some wishbones etc (see previous posting), so I'll be racing my Alfa GTV6 for a while until I get the bits back on the Martini. My GTV is sorted at least!

Phil 15 · 5 May 2005, 14:27 (Ref:1293741)

Steve,

Ive sent my protest in to Monoposto, if its anything like my previous corospondance neither of us will hear anything further

We ran cross plys on the FVL chassis and found them great everywhere except Spa when they went off quite dramatically half way through the race. We never ran the F3 tyres as the FVL was just not stiff enough to get any heat into them although Andy did a test once to establish this.

Your new car should be more stiff than the last old banger I pushed off your truck at Snett but if you set it up soft on F3 tyres you probably wont get the best out of them. We recently softened the front of the F301 to induce some understeer but even so you can be sure it is alot more ridged platform than your Martini.

At the beginning of last year we used 2nd hand tyres from ADR/Manor etc and found that we couldnt feel the mechanical grip, as soon as we ditched the old British F3 rubber and bought new tyres the feel was completly changed, even though these tyres are now quite a few races old now.

I tend to agree with Bob that Michilin is the best route to follow, the car was designed around those and so there should be set up data around to suit. If you find that the 2nd hand Michilins improve the car you can then buy a new set in time for Spa.

As far as set up is concerned you should go testing as soon as your car is back together, you dont need to go to a MSA track as you could sort out basic handling almost anywhere. If you are up north you might like to try the new place in Middlesborough http://www.teessideautodrome.co.uk/ (a mate of mine owns it so i can get you a deal) or Bruntingthorpe in the midlands http://www.trackdays.co.uk/tracks/bruntingthorpe.htm , anywhere cheap and quiet that you can play around with the set ups. If Dermot cant engineer you Muzzie would and he has been running FR's, or even Nemesis although they wont be the cheapest option.

Phil

steveng · 5 May 2005, 15:07 (Ref:1293758)

Thanks for the encouragement Phil. I went to Teeside to set up the Vauxhall. Very cheap-£50 for a half day, they are really friendly and you get the place to yourself. Only trouble was I never got out of second gear. It was fine to sort out brake bias, traction etc but some of the corners almost needed a three point turn. I will be getting the car back onto Michelins ASAP. Funnily enough the Avon man warned me (as he was fitting them) that the current F3 tyres are as hard as nails and I would be lucky if I got them up to any sort of working temp in short club race. He was right.

Bob Pearson · 5 May 2005, 15:28 (Ref:1293775)

Steve, I don't know what your timescale is with Spa etc, but if you are still struggling at the back end of June, BARC Renault have a double header at Croft which is reasonably local to you so we will all be there on the Friday. Some of us must be able to help you.

andoiwebb · 5 May 2005, 16:25 (Ref:1293815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveng

Thanks for the encouragement Phil. I went to Teeside to set up the Vauxhall. Very cheap-£50 for a half day, they are really friendly and you get the place to yourself. Only trouble was I never got out of second gear. It was fine to sort out brake bias, traction etc but some of the corners almost needed a three point turn. I will be getting the car back onto Michelins ASAP. Funnily enough the Avon man warned me (as he was fitting them) that the current F3 tyres are as hard as nails and I would be lucky if I got them up to any sort of working temp in short club race. He was right.

steve

i drove this car at anglesey in the freezing cold with the old mich tyres, the only fault with the handling was understeer. the rear had buckets of grip and it was a VERY stable car, i couldn't get any heat into the tyres at all, i'm sure they were past their sell by date too! i'd seriously consider not mucking about too much with it and run it as close to how the fr boys run it i.e. with mich tyres (newer than those on it) as putting larger diameter fronts (f3) will affect rake etc etc and ruin everything esp if the rear was left how it was..

widerviewphoto · 23 May 2005, 03:24 (Ref:1307691)

well done to the winners in some close racing at last weekends races at Pembrey. we enjoyed the typical summers weather of pouring rain as well as glorious sunny conditions on Sunday.

In FR2000 Class it is close between Nick Wilcox, Dean Stirling & Matt Russell, but with 4 wins out of 4 Ian is running away with the Club class at the moment, though Cameron almost beat him on Saturday.

Ian almost lost his car when the Team Nasamax awning collapsed due to the weight of rainwater overnight on Saturday, but was lucky !!

See you at Croft

Bob Pearson · 23 May 2005, 11:52 (Ref:1307944)

I am sure that the general trend of the formula is upwards again, but I am concerned that we were missing 3 cars from the grid at the weekend through accident damage at both Pembrey and left over from Donnington. We need to work to raise the availability of spares.
I'm glad Cameron is now on Ian's pace, I always thought he would represent worthy competition. It also takes away the catalyst for the silly talk of bent engines. Ian's girlfriend was debating getting a T shirt made with the words" Shut up or Strip it" across the front. I did suggest other wording which couldn't be so easily misconstrued.
The "sleeping dogs lying" is probably the best approach.
Nasamax can't be expected to control the weather, and in spite of the fright on Sunday morning we were still very grateful for their hospitality, and it is very gratifying to see that the professional teams and the clubbies can mix so well.
My leg, ankle etc has almost stopped hurting following my car's unscheduled attack on the pit wall, so we should both be out at Croft.

JHMotorsport · 24 May 2005, 17:11 (Ref:1309148)

Just registered on this site... hi guys.
Seemed to be a decent weekend at Pembrey... atmosphere seems pretty good at double headers and I much prefer them to single events personally.
Shame that Andy had the accident in Friday testing.. how's your one going Bob?
Congrats Ian... again good to see a 97 car flying around putting in great times.

Bob Pearson · 25 May 2005, 10:29 (Ref:1309692)

Repairs started last night, no great rush as we have a month to Croft.Actually Andy had the accident on Saturday morning qualifying, it was me that did the Friday job. We are going to replace all our fulcrum pins with some new ones made from something stronger than Tatuus used, we don't want a repeat of that.
You are right about the double headers, it always turns into a relaxed holiday atmosphere which is just fine. Anyone any news on the Jack Anderson chappie? Is he coming out in the close future.

widerviewphoto · 25 May 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1309713)

This list below was the original list of registerd Club drivers from RenaultSport, some of which we have still not seen. It would be good to get new drivers in both catagories.

Driver - Entrant
James Green - Muzz Race
Cameron Jackson - WL Racing
Martin Bloss - Logic Motorsport/X-Dream
Richard Ellingworth - X-Dream
David Scott - DS Motorsport
James Heffernan - JH Motorsport
Bob Pearson - TBA
Ian Pearson - TBA
Andy Skriczka - Avantec Motorsport
Bill Allen - Bill Allen
John Johnsen - TBA
Melvyn Ashdown - TBA

Also I know Nick Pascoe has sold his car to a competitor who will be joining us at some point this season.

Cheers

Bob Pearson · 25 May 2005, 11:07 (Ref:1309724)

Jack Anderson is a Championship registered driver, and so not on that list. Of the guys on that list that we haven't seen yet; I believe that Richard Ellingworth is selling his car, I don't know about Melvyn Ashdown and if John Johnson appears anywhere it will be Croft as it is close to where he lives. Do you know the name of the guy with Nick's car? I was contacted about 10 days ago by a chap who was looking at buying a 97 Mygale, but I don't know where that transaction got to.

widerviewphoto · 25 May 2005, 11:31 (Ref:1309739)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

Do you know the name of the guy with Nick's car? I was contacted about 10 days ago by a chap who was looking at buying a 97 Mygale, but I don't know where that transaction got to.

I bumped into Nick in the Pembrey paddock, but don't know who he sold it to.

JHMotorsport · 25 May 2005, 15:04 (Ref:1309955)

Yep, Nick was doing well with his Wife and kids at Pembrey...Only info I have is that Nick sold it to a chap called Lee but couldn't remember the surname:-) I believe Nick gave him contact details for Rickey, Muzz and someone else that could run him so I assume he's on his lonesome?

steveng · 26 May 2005, 08:21 (Ref:1310475)

I have a '96 Martini that I may well bring to your party but as yet I have found some difficulty in changing from F Vauxhall into the new car. All very different. Hopefully after some testing if I start to do some sensible times I'll throw my hat in the ring. I don't mind coming last but all the same I don't like making a complete tit of myself.

Bob Pearson · 26 May 2005, 08:52 (Ref:1310499)

Most formulas manage to accidentally create the impression that they are deadky serious and only welcome the fastest drivers etc. In all cases when you join you realise that your perception was wrong and BARC Renault is no different.
Sure, we have some very talented drivers at the front and always have done, but, as with just about any formula there are a number of us who are the wrong side of 40. I make no secret of the fact that I am 58 and can't get anywhere near the front.
So, don't let it worry you Steve, we have drivers who regularily go a lap or two down, it is after all, just club racing.
As I suggested before, if you have the Martini repaired by the 24th June, come to the Croft test day, or better still enter the meeting. I am sure Simon North and Pauline from Renault will be flexible regarding the registration fee.
Just remember, we have all made complete tits of ourselves in one way or another over the years, if it really worried us we would still be sat in a grandstand somewhere instead of on a grid prepared to put our twopennarth done for inspection by all.

steveng · 26 May 2005, 12:12 (Ref:1310645)

I'v provsionally booked to test at Croft on the 14thbut I have to give evidence at some inquiry and may need to cancel, so I may well take you up on your offer.
Thanks

JHMotorsport · 26 May 2005, 12:17 (Ref:1310649)

Bob is spot on....
I was encouraged last year to enter Pembrey and help bolster grid numbers and my car had no steering rack, steering arms, or front wing at the time!
It was my first race of any kind in any car whatsoever but I threw myself in at the single seater deep end and had a laugh anyway. Everyone was so helpful in BARC FRenault that we managed to get a 98/99 steering arm and ends on the car just to get me through the weekend and it was better than sitting at home staring at the car:-)
I also made the trip to Wales from London without anyone else that weekend but didn't mind one bit as everybody was so accomodating (and prob just felt sorry for me:-)...

There's no way I'm competitive at the moment either but I don't expect to be until I get some testing miles in (which I couldn't afford last year) ... I found it no problem getting into the 59.5s lap times at Pembrey on ancient tyres and a crappy setup.

Come along and I'm sure we will all help where we can to achieve a reasonable base setup on the Michelins so you can work from there. I'd say do it!

bzzzracing · 27 May 2005, 09:36 (Ref:1311416)

How much is a second hand complete rear wing assembly worth (no cracks, dents........)?

Rich.

andoiwebb · 27 May 2005, 12:43 (Ref:1311568)

ask dermot healy on: 07703162409

ianpearson · 27 May 2005, 12:43 (Ref:1311570)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bzzzracing

How much is a second hand complete rear wing assembly worth (no cracks, dents........)?

Rich.

is it the latest edition? i belive there was a rear wing upgrade around about that time. If it is not the current style it may be almost worthless to a Formula renault competitor, but still worth a couple of hundred quid to a mono or F4 competitor if it is completete

andoiwebb · 27 May 2005, 12:44 (Ref:1311574)

oops, didn't realise you were trying to flog it!!!

ianpearson · 27 May 2005, 12:46 (Ref:1311575)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andoiwebb

ask dermot healy on: 07703162409

if it is 2001 spec, i don't believe dermot has any experience of the newer cars post 2000, but he is a knowledgable chap & may be able to help

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