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Old 5 May 2003, 10:59 (Ref:589928)   #26
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Is what some of you are suggesting really a unification/compromise, or do you just want CART plus Indianapolis.
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Old 5 May 2003, 14:09 (Ref:590041)   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dov
(1)Are YOU fed up with the quality of racing in CART and the IRL?
(2)Can YOU imagine how much better the racing would be if they were united?
(3)Do YOU HONESTLY believe that CART and even the IRL will be around in another 10 years IF they don't unite?
(4)Would YOU be willing to AT LEAST sign a petition?
1a) The IRL: not yet. The first couple of races, Miami and Phoenix, usually are not as entertaining (or as well watched) as the later races at Texas, etc. This has held true so far this year, although I expected Motegi to be better than it was. The number of wrecks bothers me also. I will know after Texas.
1b) CART: I've only been able to see one race because I don't get SPEED here. It (LB) was not a great one. I am also tired of seeing Tracy win every race. But I would not say I am fed up yet here, either.

2) If the racing didn't get "better" when many of the CART teams switched sides for this season, bringing the whole of the two leagues together is not going to make it any better. As stated above, we'll know more after Texas (for the IRL).

3) The IRL will be around as long as the 500 & BY400 are around, and as long as TG wants them to be. CART will probably have to be bought by someone in order to make it.

4) It would depend. I think the racing is better on a higher percentage of the ovals than it is on the RCs, and FAR better than on the streets. If the merger includes keeping most of the ovals, the best road courses, Cleveland, and very few (if any) street parades, I might sign it.

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Old 5 May 2003, 14:10 (Ref:590042)   #28
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Originally posted by racer69
Is what some of you are suggesting really a unification/compromise, or do you just want CART plus Indianapolis.
The impression I am getting is that they want the second choice.
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Old 5 May 2003, 14:25 (Ref:590048)   #29
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Originally posted by The Snout
Guys, we wanted the thread is about taking action as fans, not discussing a schedule. It's a worthy topic as it has always been but this is about something else.
But many fans, like myself, might not be interested in taking action unless there is some idea of what we'd want the schedule to look like. If this is going to turn into CART + Indy, I am not interested.

Something else I've not seem mentioned...CART is seen as (and is maybe meant to be) an American version of Formula-1. I think that is part of the problem. Only us "die-hards" in the US like F1. Most people have as little an idea about it as they do CART or the IRL. Merging the series and keeping the CART/F1 flavor is not going to help grow the fan base in the US.
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Old 5 May 2003, 19:16 (Ref:590248)   #30
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I don't speak for every CART fan Blue, just like you don't speak for every IRL fan, but I am willing to compromise. From reading your threads, it looks like you tend to favour the ovals and I tend to favour the road courses. I would hate to give up the Toronto Molson Indy because it has been a race that I attend every year and it has been one of CART's stronger events, but I would be willing to give it up. I would take the car/bus NE 5 hours to Montreal or 5 hours SW to MIS if we had one united open wheel racing series. Would you be willing to give up your local IRL race (event)? If we are going to have one ow racing series, there would be some tracks that are essential to keep and there are some tracks we could do without (in both series). If the series were united, the number of quality drivers would go up and in turn so would the quality of races. We could have 25-30 strong races. Remember guys, if you want to compromise, you have to think about the other series racing fans. How can we help grow the fan base in the US? Please come up with something other then...by keeping most of the oval races. The word is COMPROMISE.
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Old 5 May 2003, 22:02 (Ref:590410)   #31
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I'm for having 25-30 races which are a compilation of the best from both series. I'd like a decent amount of both ovals and road courses. Like I said earlier I'm happy to have the banked tracks onboard, not my favorite but if it leads to a unification then I'm happy enough. If the IRL fans simply don't want Long Beach, Surfers etc as part of the series then perhaps there is no unity with the fans and the idea can die, hey that's fine we're just seeing how others felt on the matter.

I think openwheel would be far better off with one series, which is a mixture of the 2. Road courses, short ovals, streets, banked ovals, superspeedways etc. As long as all disciplines are represented then I'm not worried about exactments of the calendar. For me it's that simple.
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Old 5 May 2003, 23:20 (Ref:590455)   #32
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Look for Tony's IRL Indy Car Series to add Road America, and 1 other road racing track in a couple of years. Time is on TG's side since Bernie has yet to bail out CART. I thought this was to happen sometime in April. Merging means power sharing and that aint going to happen in this case. The only think merging will be a couple of CART teams into the IRL.
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Old 6 May 2003, 02:07 (Ref:590505)   #33
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There is no way a unified open wheel championship will have 25-30 races on the schedule, none of the teams would agree to that, and the costs would be huge.

The most i'd say would be 20, say 10 ovals and 10 road courses to be fair to each side. Some would also have to accept that if this is to be a unification, Tony George will be involved in the series (more than just Indy)
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Old 6 May 2003, 03:46 (Ref:590520)   #34
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20,30 or 17 races, as long as they are the best on offer it's just numbers to me. 16-17 would be a minimum.

I'd hope that some sort of board consisting of Tony George, Chris Pook (or David Clare) , Mario Andretti and say a representative of team owners, this representative could change each year perhaps. These people would run the Championship series. Tony and Chris represent each series pre merger, Mario represents common sense and the fans, and the team rep is for the teams to have a say. Be good to see it stay small rather than having 10-15+ people running the show. Keep the CART ladder system, add more ovals to it and merge Atlantics and IPS.
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Old 6 May 2003, 03:49 (Ref:590521)   #35
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Tony George He won't be involved in any kind of unified series. Cart's tried to work with him, it's failed.

I think this is all useless, as much as some want a unified open-wheel series, the differences are just way too great.
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Old 6 May 2003, 07:13 (Ref:590594)   #36
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It's pretty obvious agreement can't be reached in 3 to 4 days of posting to a forum thread. Compromise takes time.
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Old 6 May 2003, 07:46 (Ref:590616)   #37
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About OW racing in north America, have to point out that unifing the two leagues would'nt necessarily be good for the sport, because:
- There are always been two cathegories of teams: bigger/richer (e.g. Andretti,Penske, Ganassi etc) and smaller/poorer (too long list)

Actually both deserve to survive, but it wouldn'be possible in an unified championship.
The transaction IRL (upwards) and CART (downwards) are living this year along this economic ladder, and the consequent difficulties (in either league most teams are excluded from the chance to win a race) are penalising spectacle and showing that, basically, these two team-classes should better be splitted.
Now it seems that TG is succeding in his long term strategy to reverse the relation with CART, and make IRL the richer one.
But it doesn't really mean that IRL is now healthy/wealthy than last year: lesser teams, lesser entries, growing budget demanded to stay in.
CART on the contrary is passing through a hard time, that has weakened his economic solidity (no new chassis issued this year), but this has permitted the entrance of several new teams, which are obviously smaller than those who switched to IRL.
To conclude my opinion is that:
-It's not desirable to merge IRL and CART
-It's not realistic that one of them accept to be recognised as the poorer
- Competition has never damaged the motorsport
- Things will improve, I think, when the economy in the US will get back to past prosperity, encouranging sponsorships

Last edited by climb; 6 May 2003 at 07:48.
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Old 6 May 2003, 14:25 (Ref:591037)   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dov
I don't speak for every CART fan Blue, just like you don't speak for every IRL fan, but I am willing to compromise. From reading your threads, it looks like you tend to favour the ovals and I tend to favour the road courses. I would hate to give up the Toronto Molson Indy because it has been a race that I attend every year and it has been one of CART's stronger events, but I would be willing to give it up. I would take the car/bus NE 5 hours to Montreal or 5 hours SW to MIS if we had one united open wheel racing series. Would you be willing to give up your local IRL race (event)? If we are going to have one ow racing series, there would be some tracks that are essential to keep and there are some tracks we could do without (in both series). If the series were united, the number of quality drivers would go up and in turn so would the quality of races. We could have 25-30 strong races. Remember guys, if you want to compromise, you have to think about the other series racing fans. How can we help grow the fan base in the US? Please come up with something other then...by keeping most of the oval races. The word is COMPROMISE.
Actually, I don't mind the road courses, but I am already a fan. I used to enjoy watching the feeders compete at Mid-Ohio and RA, back when ESPN carried them. What I usually don't find exciting are the street races, although they have their moments...but there again I am already a fan.

I think part of the reason folks lost interest in OW had little to do with a split, and more to do with North American OW becoming less American, and moving towards being more like F1. I like F1, and there again, I am already a fan. However, most Americans don't follow it, unfortunately. Back in the 1970's, OW was still big in the US, & there were years then where the "IndyCar series" included little or nothing but ovals. As ovals were moved away from, and some of the races became parades, Americans lost interest.

I am pretty sure Mario wants to keep the "F1 flavor" in any unified series. IMHO, we can compromise and merge the IRL and CART, and keep a balance of Ovals and Roads, but the more "Euro-centric" the series is, the less likely we are to add many new fans.

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Old 6 May 2003, 14:29 (Ref:591039)   #39
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Originally posted by racer69
There is no way a unified open wheel championship will have 25-30 races on the schedule, none of the teams would agree to that, and the costs would be huge.
Agreed.
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Old 6 May 2003, 14:47 (Ref:591061)   #40
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Originally posted by BlueStang
The impression I am getting is that they want the second choice.
Well, what if we could go back to the CART of the '80s, or something like it? A lot of North American drivers, mostly lifers... Sponsors contracted to teams instead of individual drivers... Pocono, Pheonix, Cleveland, Long Beach, Indy, Michigan, Elkhart, Milwaukee, Laguna Seca... Cars that are a little slower, a little less powerful, a little less sophisticated, but can really race... Though not so handicapped by their aero packages as the current IRL cars, which also suffer from being just plain unattractive. Constant changes of position over 500 miles make the racing feel contrived, and you don't get the same sense of drama you do with a brilliant charge up through the field.

Neither series has it right, or has all the ingredients to make it right. But maybe we can make it happen working together. Tony George, Roger Penske, Chris Pook, and quite a few others will have to be locked out of the room during the negotiations, though.
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Old 6 May 2003, 15:04 (Ref:591091)   #41
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Perhaps we could even get a "Council of Elders" to run the series... 5 retired drivers who we can all agree would represent the best interests as many parties as possible?

I'd nominate Mario, A.J., Dan Gurney, Rick Mears, and Emmo. Two CART guys, two IRL, and one not currently involved but who I think we all respect.
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Old 6 May 2003, 18:49 (Ref:591347)   #42
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Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Well, what if we could go back to the CART of the '80s, or something like it? A lot of North American drivers, mostly lifers... Sponsors contracted to teams instead of individual drivers... Pocono, Pheonix, Cleveland, Long Beach, Indy, Michigan, Elkhart, Milwaukee, Laguna Seca... Cars that are a little slower, a little less powerful, a little less sophisticated, but can really race... Though not so handicapped by their aero packages as the current IRL cars, which also suffer from being just plain unattractive. Constant changes of position over 500 miles make the racing feel contrived, and you don't get the same sense of drama you do with a brilliant charge up through the field.
For starters, the North American drivers in CART circa 1980 were largely from an oval track background, though by the mid-80's it was well-nigh impossible for any new drivers from that background to break in.

Quote:
[/B]Neither series has it right, or has all the ingredients to make it right. But maybe we can make it happen working together. Tony George, Roger Penske, Chris Pook, and quite a few others will have to be locked out of the room during the negotiations, though. [/B]
But if both series "had it right" they wouldn't look the same. They would each have unique cultures, talent sources and fan bases with very little overlap.

Just how would "compromise" be different from CART + Indy, anyway? One of the things that many IRL diehards care most about is where the drivers come from. That issue is probably the first one they'd have to jettison in order to achieve a compromise. That alone would make the resultant merged series look so much like CART + Indy that it wouldn't make any difference what else came out of the negotiations.
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Old 6 May 2003, 21:24 (Ref:591592)   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dakota Hogback

One of the things that many IRL diehards care most about is where the drivers come from. That issue is probably the first one they'd have to jettison in order to achieve a compromise.
Uhm, most of the IRL drivers came from CART.
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Old 6 May 2003, 23:57 (Ref:591797)   #44
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Uhm, most of the IRL drivers came from CART.
Yep, that's one of the things the die hard IRL fans are unhappy with. They're hoping that the IPS will help change things, but if the two series merge, there is nothing left for them to hope for. That's why the IRL doesn't "have it right". It still doesn't know what it wants to be when it grows up. It doesn't know which culture it wants to be part of. It thinks it's the top rung of the open wheel oval ladder, but it can only be reached by climbing the open wheel road racing ladder.

If the IRL circle track fans agree to a compromise, they must give up their last glimmer of hope that they will ever see someone that they've heard of racing in a top level open wheel series.

If it finally tips over to the road racing culture, by adding a significant number of road races to the schedule, then the two series are truly redundant, and the IRL by default becomes the equivalent of CART + Indy, whether there is a unification or not. If that's the case, there really needs to be some sort of union between the two.

If it finally tips over to the oval track culture, by attracting a significant number of oval track drivers and teams, at least it will have established a target market distinct from CART. I don't think that will happen. Few will want to take a pay cut to do IPS, and those that do will tear up enough hardware that they will be told to get some rear-engine experience on their own dime before trying IPS.

The best hope for survival of the two series is for each to become distinct from the other, the one being purely a road racing series and the other a purely oval series.

Further, a single series that runs a 50/50 schedule of roads and ovals will be considered the top rung of all open wheel racing, but in the process, the existence of the open wheel circle track culture will be discounted ("those are really stock cars anyway"). I see a lot of the attitude that open wheel racing includes Atlantics, Barber Dodge, FF2000 and SCCA but not midgets, sprints, supermodifieds and Silver Crown. You really want to unify open wheel under one umbrella? Figure out a way to join both of those ladders to the same top rung.

I think that any unification that happens would only sow with it the seeds of the next split, because the issues that triggered the CART-USAC split in 1979 and the CART/IRL split in 1995 will not have been resovled. There would only be a marriage of convenience to stop the bleeding.

The great irony in all this is that the biggest open wheel oval race in North America isn't even on the to do list of any open wheel oval racers, and the North American open wheel road racers covet that same oval race more than any other. If Indy was truly "just another race", the road racers wouldn't be interested in it and the circle burners would be showing up every May in the modern day carbon fiber descendant of the Watson roadster, and everyone would actually be happy with their lot in life.
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Old 7 May 2003, 00:38 (Ref:591818)   #45
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I want to no what American/IRL ow racing fans would like if CART and the IRL were to unite. What would a united ow racing series look like to you? (CART fans can also answer these questions...if they want)

In a United OW Racing Series:

Do you want only American drivers in the UOWRS (united open wheel racing series)?

Or would you like to see 4-6 of the best American drivers take on the best drivers the world has to offer?

What drivers from CART and the IRL would you like to see race in the new UOWRS?

Do you only want them to race on ovals?

Would you like them to race on the best tracks that CART and the IRL have and please tell me what tracks they are (oval/road/street/airport)?

Would you like Mario, A.J., Dan Gurney, Mears and Emmo to run the UOWRS (they would represent the best interests of the FANS, drivers and team owners)?

We are not here to haggle over every small point, but to work together towards a common cause.
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Old 7 May 2003, 01:45 (Ref:591830)   #46
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Dakota, I honestly agree with the IRL diehard position on drivers. I want to see more guys coming out of modifieds, sprints, and midgets. I want a lot more American (and Canadian, for that matter) TALENT on the grid. And that's where the talent here comes from because it's the accessible form of racing. Road racing just isn't viable for some kid trying to race his way up the ranks, but stock cars and midgets are.

I actually wrote a rather strong rant over in the CART forum yesterday, about the annoying undercurrent of elitism the fanbase has, as though the worst road race will always be better than the best oval race, just because it involves right-hand turns. Which is a load of carp. And it applies to the drivers too... Everyone ignores the fact that Mario learned all his skills on ovals, mostly dirt... Or that A.J. _turned_down_ a ride with Ferrari after winning LeMans... Or that Mears outpaced Piquet in his test with Brabham. Mario himself has said that a fast driver is a fast driver, no matter what he's racing. To me, that's the gospel truth, as it was even before he pointed it out.

But you need the sponsors and the owners doing their damn jobs to get rid of the damn pay drivers. Dammit, even Foyt had to pick up one of those useless Japanese pay drivers!

The sponsors are specifically why we need one series. NASCAR's got their act together, and we don't. Plain and simple. That's why they get all the sponsors, and the TEAMS can afford to pay the DRIVERS, rather than the other way around.

What a crazy idea... Hiring drivers based on MERIT.
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Old 7 May 2003, 01:53 (Ref:591831)   #47
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Dov... I won't go into all the details of what I'd like to see... But a 35% to 50% American/Canadian grid, lower running costs than either series... 8 ovals, 8 road course, and 4 to 6 street circuits... 2 races in South America, 2 or 3 in Europe, 1 or 2 in Australia, 2 in Mexico, and the one Japanese one... That'd leave 10 to 14 races in the US and Canada... Trim away the worst venues from both series, and that's about what you're left with!
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Old 7 May 2003, 02:57 (Ref:591858)   #48
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Lee, if you're going to lump Canadian and American drivers together, you might as well include the Mexicans and call it North American drivers. In that case, CART isn't doing that bad. 9 of the 19 drivers are North American (and only one of those is a "pay-hack")

In the IRL, 13 of 25 drivers are American. So the ratio is about the same (of course, in the IRL, they are all from the USA).
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Old 7 May 2003, 06:13 (Ref:591934)   #49
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These are the venues which I think are essential for a United Open Wheel Racing Series to run at. Remember, this is not set in stone and I am willing to compromise on any of these races!

OVALS
(1)Phoenix
(2)MIS
(3)Milwaukee Mile
(4)Fontana
(5)Nazereth
(6)Indy 500
(7)Chicagoland
(8)Texas
ROAD COURSES
(1)Road America
(2)Laguna Seca
(3)Mid-Ohio
(4)Portland
(5)Montreal
(6)Mexico(Fundidora)
(7)Mexico City
(8)Brands Hatch(GPC)
STREET COURSES
(1)Long Beach
(2)Surfer's Paradise
(3)Cleveland(airport)
(4)Toronto
(5)Vancouver
(6)St. Pete's
Like I was saying above, this is not set in stone. If you oval fans are not happy, we could add a few more oval races and take away a couple of the other (road/street courses) races. That said, I myself am more of a road course racing fan and I wouldn't mind seeing 2 famous European RC's added to the schedule in the near future...Belgium(Spa Francorchamps) and Germany(Nurburgring). Also like Lee was saying, I feel there could be at least 1 race in Japan and at least 1 race in South America. The whole schedule is up for discussion. Let's COMPROMISE!!!

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Old 7 May 2003, 12:05 (Ref:592284)   #50
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Quote:
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Well, what if we could go back to the CART of the '80s, or something like it? A lot of North American drivers, mostly lifers... Sponsors contracted to teams instead of individual drivers... Pocono, Pheonix, Cleveland, Long Beach, Indy, Michigan, Elkhart, Milwaukee, Laguna Seca... Cars that are a little slower, a little less powerful, a little less sophisticated, but can really race... Though not so handicapped by their aero packages as the current IRL cars, which also suffer from being just plain unattractive. Constant changes of position over 500 miles make the racing feel contrived, and you don't get the same sense of drama you do with a brilliant charge up through the field.
That does not sound too bad. But I disagree about the position changes feeling contrived. I feel that way about races where you are almost assured that a front-row qualifier will get the win (like this season at Long Beach, Brands, F1 Spain). If you are trying to get new AMERICAN fans, this is real important. Most of them only care who wins...watching a fight deep in the field may intrigue us die-hard race fans, but most Americans are only going to care about on-track fights for the lead.

I do agree that we should have more American/North American talent, and that there are good ovals, just as there are good road courses. I would rather see more North American races, and fewer overseas...that is F1's territory, and I don't see why we should "re-invent the wheel" yet again.

I also agree about sponsors. Looking at the IRL, the most sucessful teams over the past few years are the ones that have their own sponsors, and not ones that change from driver to driver. Pennzoil was Panther's sponsor before Hornish...Marlboro has been with Penske for a while...Target is Chip's sponsor, and won't leave him if Dixon or Tomas do...etc. Depending on the driver to bring the sponsor is not good business sense, IMHO.

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