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Old 7 Oct 2019, 11:08 (Ref:3932446)   #26
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Hmm, ok. So who are they acting on behalf of? FOM? I wasn't aware any one photo agency had image rights over everything in F1...?
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 11:11 (Ref:3932447)   #27
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Appears to be Motorsport Network who also own Autosport among others. So it would also follow that this covers non F1 related events as well.
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 11:32 (Ref:3932451)   #28
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Appears to be Motorsport Network who also own Autosport among others. So it would also follow that this covers non F1 related events as well.
At the rate these clowns are going, you won't be able to photograph your own car in your garage in order to sell it.
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 12:27 (Ref:3932464)   #29
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The clause is likely rarely used because there is a high likelihood that it is unenforceable.

Effectively the entity that sells the ticket is trying to force you into licensing the rights to your pictures to the organizer by way of the property owner's right to control who may enter a venue or not (in German it is called the Hausrecht, which literrally translates to "household right").

However, licensing rights would need to be against some form of compensation. Hard to see how that works if you pay for the ticket unless the ticket seller claims otherwise your tickets would be even more expensive. As there would be no differentiation between those that do make pictures and those that do not, this argument is shaky at the very least.

So at least under German law the clause would be null and void as it would be unreasonable and very much to the disadvantage of the spectator.

The venue owner could prohibit you from taking any photos but that would still not give them any license.
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 12:43 (Ref:3932466)   #30
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I'm not a copyright lawyer so you may be right. What you are describing is in essence the law of contract under English law.
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 13:16 (Ref:3932478)   #31
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So they aren't claiming copyright over images that have been taken by photographers belonging to Sutton or LAT, but they are claiming rights over ALL F1 images regardless of who took the photos?
That's not how I read it. I think it might be more narrow than that, but still a real problem. I expect it's more a case of older images that might have found their way into the Motorsports Network library and they mistakenly think they have exclusive rights, or those images may have been licensed for broad and liberal usage in the past and now the licensing details are lost. I post more speculation in the thread mentioned below.

I see no indication that Motorsports Network think they own all F1 images. I mean, that's a bit crazy. If anyone wanted to try to pull that move, it would be FOM.

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Also mentioned in the How to Fix F1 thread here
IMHO, an admin should merge those posts into this thread.

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Old 7 Oct 2019, 13:45 (Ref:3932482)   #32
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They may just have an issue with pitpass?

But surely any photo taken by a photographer and used commercially is still first owned by the team and/or FOM no? Would be interesting to know What rights an accredited photog actually has. And or what rights one team has to take photos of another team's car?

Rather if a team uses a Sutton image to glean insight to another is this also an infraction?
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3932499)   #33
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The legal default position is that the photographer owns that image and its copyright, unless ownership is transferred in writing. If a photographer sell his library they would presumably transfer copyright to the purchaser in the sale contract. There are various ways that race tracks and editorial outlets try and grab copyright in the small print, these vary in legal merit, so it's a can of worms.
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Old 7 Oct 2019, 17:26 (Ref:3932519)   #34
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You can look at the process to get a press pass here...

https://www.fia.com/media-center/media_accreditation

A very quick scan of the PDF link at that bottom and it seems like you own your IP, but as a photographer, you have to stay in your lane. You can't take video or sound recordings. I am sure there are more rules than that.

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Old 7 Oct 2019, 18:34 (Ref:3932539)   #35
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Press pass and the terms & conditions related to that are a totally different story that regular visitor tickets.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 01:12 (Ref:3932574)   #36
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Press pass and the terms & conditions related to that are a totally different story that regular visitor tickets.
Absolutely. I expect there is another unsaid point you are looking to make?

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Old 8 Oct 2019, 01:38 (Ref:3932582)   #37
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After reading posts from the previous page, I think I understand what you are getting at. I think there are two different, but related, discussions happening in the same thread. The first is the topic of who owns the IP for photos that Pit Pass used and Motorsports Network claims they used without licensing. I think it is fair to say those were taken by paid professionals working for an agency, for hire by a team (or some other entity), or both. That is the group that would use media accreditation before being allowed to photograph at an F1 event (GP weekend). The other is the rights (or lack thereof) for fans (non professional without accreditation) to take photos at these same events.

I think the second topic is fine, but not part of what brought this thread back from the dead. And that was confusing me.

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Old 8 Oct 2019, 06:04 (Ref:3932600)   #38
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Yes, I was originally commenting on the fan photos and restrictions on the ticket.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 06:20 (Ref:3932604)   #39
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I may have set that hare running since I interpret the PitPass story to be one that may cover all photographs, not just those from accredited photographers. In other words, Motorsport whatever is trying to obtain the rights to personal photographs taken by private individuals, since it does not appear to want to name the photographers who's pictures it says are being used in breach of copyright. Nor does it specify who owns said copyright other than the complainant is acting on behalf of this Motorsport entity.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 09:32 (Ref:3932651)   #40
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 12:18 (Ref:3932686)   #41
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Autosport , Motorsport News andF1 Racing closing down
Thread here: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthre...wpost&t=154516
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 14:46 (Ref:3932721)   #42
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You can look at the process to get a press pass here...

https://www.fia.com/media-center/media_accreditation

A very quick scan of the PDF link at that bottom and it seems like you own your IP, but as a photographer, you have to stay in your lane. You can't take video or sound recordings. I am sure there are more rules than that.

Richard
thanks for the link Richard!

enjoyed reading about the criteria of what qualifies one as a journo/photog and now obviously im wondering what 10Tenths would have to do to meet the criteria qualifications?

blogs do not qualify but what about forums?

if successful, i call dibs on using 'our' press pass for the Canadian GP. home race!
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 17:44 (Ref:3932755)   #43
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thanks for the link Richard!


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enjoyed reading about the criteria of what qualifies one as a journo/photog and now obviously im wondering what 10Tenths would have to do to meet the criteria qualifications?

blogs do not qualify but what about forums?

if successful, i call dibs on using 'our' press pass for the Canadian GP. home race!
I didn't look at it again, but clearly they want to control who gets press accreditation. Basically, they don't want regular people gaming the system to get extraordinary levels of access. So I think there is no hope for us! Then again who is "us". That leads to my next point...

So the initial issue... Motorsports Network owns the IP for a lot of images. They have partnered with a service that will crawl the web looking for unlicensed use. It is likely targeted crawling, but the primary targets are likely professional publications (i.e. Pit Pass and similar), that doesn't mean something like this forum might be caught up in this. But it could be expanded to a broader audience. Such as popular forums.

I am talking about the common scenarios in which someone posts in a thread and wants to show an image or photo of something. So they good a Google image search, find what they are looking for (such as a legally licensed image shown on an online magazine), grab the URL and then drop it (the image) into a post. I am as guilty as anyone. I don't own the IP of those images and I would say that 99.999% of the posts by forum members don't own the IP for images they post. I also suspect (need to re-read) that the forum rules say that you can't post IP owned by others. And I am not exactly sure where "fair use" comes into play in this situation.

This pretty much identical to the situation in which YouTube provides tools for IP owners to search for violations. Which is why you see few F1 videos on YouTube because FOM (who I assume is the overall holder of F1 related video IP) searches for and kills any F1 video that doesn't have appropriate licensing (such as select broadcasters who have a licensing agreement).

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Old 8 Oct 2019, 17:56 (Ref:3932756)   #44
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Richard, by extension you've just reinforced my point. If you or I were to post a picture of (say) Lewis Hamilton Joshing with some fans and we posted it here as "I took this at Silverstone" (other tracks are available) we can expect the thought police to demand costs for copyright infringement.

To me it's just another nail in the coffin of what was once a an enjoyable sport.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 18:17 (Ref:3932762)   #45
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Richard, by extension you've just reinforced my point. If you or I were to post a picture of (say) Lewis Hamilton Joshing with some fans and we posted it here as "I took this at Silverstone" (other tracks are available) we can expect the thought police to demand costs for copyright infringement.

To me it's just another nail in the coffin of what was once a an enjoyable sport.
I think right now... you couldn't get away with posting a YouTube video of you with Hamilton at a GP event as FOM might easily hunt you down and kill the video (note, this might be done automatically without anyone explicitly targetting you). Taking personal photos at a GP event is (IMHO) a bit harder to police given the technology of today. So while it will be an issue in the future, it is probably not now. The reason why image IP works for someone like Motorsports Network is because they have existing images in which they can look for exact copies. Your personal photos are unique, so it's harder to say "oh, this was taken at Silverstone on this specific GP weekend".

But your point remains. And I don't think this is exclusive to F1, but it is what this forums is about. I also think that IP owners are getting new tools they didn't have previously so they may need to understand what the appropriate balance is (i.e. What are real IP issue and where the real problem lives).

For me (and I think most everyone would agree), that trying to make money off media from F1 events is a bad idea. The problem is... it is currently an important revenue stream for FOM, so they will protect it. Just like Motorsports Networks feels their media assets are valuable, so they are trying to protect them (if Pit Pass reports are correct, then it's not going well)

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Old 8 Oct 2019, 18:22 (Ref:3932764)   #46
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In fairness though, arent all sports/businesses policing the Internet more and more in this fashion.

I do take your meaning though...less and less room for the little guy and at some point even our corner of the net wont be ours anymore.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 18:51 (Ref:3932771)   #47
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I'm not sure I've grasped all of this. Are you saying that if I take a picture from the public areas at a race track and stick it on FB I'm infringing their copyright?

So gradually people are stopped from publishing their own photos. Gradually people stop taking photos. Gradually interest wanes.

The specialist pages stick to boring royalty free images. Formulaic pictures. Interest wanes.

Great marketing plan! Typical short termist F1.

More photos = more interest. Spread them wide, spread the love.

Or have I got it wrong? After all, I am reading this after a couple of glasses of red

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Old 8 Oct 2019, 19:01 (Ref:3932777)   #48
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Max, that is what appears to be the aim.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 19:24 (Ref:3932779)   #49
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Max: no, you are not violating any copyright. Again, you do not sign away your copyright or license the rights just by buying a ticket because the clauses that say so are very likely void.

However, any owner of a property can prohibit visitors from taking picture as part of their house rules. If they catch you taking pictures, they can throw you out. This is what for example museums do and this is allowed and enforceable. So if the ticket that you bought says "you may not take pictures", that is usually enforceable and they can enforce that by throwing you out.

The pictures you did take before being thrown out are yours and you can do as you please (potentially within the limits of data protection if you take pictures of other people that did not consent to you posting them online). They cannot prevent you from that on legal grounds for the reason stated above.

What they can do factually by the power of being the bigger bully is a different story.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 20:30 (Ref:3932797)   #50
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Hmm interesting. I'm just taking part in the Motorsport Photo Challenge on Facebook, and I was about to use a spectacular picture when I saw it was "Sutton Images" on the motorsport.com site. So I'll stay clear!

What a minefield!
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