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Old 8 Feb 2015, 22:55 (Ref:3503070)   #51
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Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri View Post
Max has made a joke out of the entire feeder system, which is why the FIA have finally acted. Pity it was a year too late.
He made a joke of 20 or so Formula 3 drivers last year as well.
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Old 8 Feb 2015, 22:57 (Ref:3503072)   #52
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Mike surely the teams gather so much data from the cars, the wind tunnels and the simulator that driver feedback is not as important as it used to be...
Yes, one would have thought so, but look at what happened at Ferrari. Having based all their aerodynamics and subsequent set up on their findings from the wind tunnels, they then discovered that the wind tunnels were giving out inaccurate data. It then required the drivers to have the necessary nous to be able to give the engineers the right feedback to overcome the cars shortcomings.

It is said that Alonso was able to drive "around" the cars deficiencies, and I am not going to argue with that point of view. However, I also think that he is somewhat like Schumaker was, and that he worked hard behind the scenes with his engineers and was able to give them accurate feedback so that his car progressed faster than Kimi's who doesn't appear to have the same working relationship with his crew.

But at the end of the day, no matter what your wind tunnels and data processors say, it's the driver who has to put into practice on a real circuit, with real grease on the track, and real wind that can be swirling around messing up the aero, and sometimes, even many times, it will be guys like de la Rosa who will have the advantage.
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Old 8 Feb 2015, 23:10 (Ref:3503076)   #53
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I have this vague recollection of a chap called Kimi Raikkonen, who came into F1 with bugger all experience (but what he had was top-notch and floor-wiping in terms of wins) but did really rather well (and was very popular to boot).

Perhaps I'm mistaken?

OK, he was a little bit older than Max, but still. 23 single seat car races was all he'd done, and I don't see any retrospective hand-wringing over that.
That is a great example and I was just thinking of Kimi.

There was absolute uproar when he was granted a superlicense as, I think, he had about twenty car races to his name most of which were in Formula Renault UK!

He scored a point on his GP debut naturally!

Edit - I appear to have missed wnut posting this exact info. Apologies sir.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 00:00 (Ref:3503093)   #54
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The issue is that F1 is neutered, not the age of the drivers:


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117422

"Currently F1 cars allow every other GP2 or F3 driver to be as quick as established drivers within a very short time and without taking too much risk," he said."Some time ago young drivers were really worried about speed, braking, downforce and a big crash at 300km/h.
"Today you can drive a F1 car like a road car. I could do it, you could do it."
Niki Lauda
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 00:03 (Ref:3503095)   #55
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Of course, this is the same Niki Lauda who spun three times when testing a Jaguar F1 car with traction control on it.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 00:06 (Ref:3503096)   #56
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Of course, this is the same Niki Lauda who spun three times when testing a Jaguar F1 car with traction control on it.
Although to be fair they have been dumbing the cars down for several years since then!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLLDWnJEUfQ

2002, probably couldn't get his elbows past his gut! Still not exactly a huge accident!

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Old 9 Feb 2015, 00:49 (Ref:3503106)   #57
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Yes, one would have thought so, but look at what happened at Ferrari. Having based all their aerodynamics and subsequent set up on their findings from the wind tunnels, they then discovered that the wind tunnels were giving out inaccurate data. It then required the drivers to have the necessary nous to be able to give the engineers the right feedback to overcome the cars shortcomings.

It is said that Alonso was able to drive "around" the cars deficiencies, and I am not going to argue with that point of view. However, I also think that he is somewhat like Schumaker was, and that he worked hard behind the scenes with his engineers and was able to give them accurate feedback so that his car progressed faster than Kimi's who doesn't appear to have the same working relationship with his crew.

But at the end of the day, no matter what your wind tunnels and data processors say, it's the driver who has to put into practice on a real circuit, with real grease on the track, and real wind that can be swirling around messing up the aero, and sometimes, even many times, it will be guys like de la Rosa who will have the advantage.
You raise good points and have at least endeavoured to look beyond a mere number, something many seem dazzled by.

There are things Max probably still has to learn, no question. But that is true of anyone who enters F1. Lewis Hamilton commented after securing his second title that he only felt he really began to learn about F1 properly after his first title, and that is a guy who followed the 'logical' way up the ladder.

Setup may be one issue, but tbh that isn't as crucial as it once was. The teams come to the track with a very close to optimum base setting these days. Where once it was constantly fiddling with changing gear ratios and the like, now the simulator takes care of the bulk of the job for the driver and it comes down to fine tuning by the driver and engineer. You very rarely see a driver "at sea" setup wise these days, if at all. And besides, who is to say Verstappen can't give good feedback? A lot of young drivers impress in this regard.

The main hurdle will be managing the tyres. This was something that Magnussen struggled with, particularly after the pit radio restrictions were introduced. It was probably what cost him his drive. But I think anybody would struggle with it coming into the series, it is odd rubber!

The difference for Max is he is in a team that is prepared to let its drivers grow and learn on the job. Where better to learn how to tackle F1 than, well, F1? As long as he does a solid job he will be allowed time to prove himself and room to grow. That is what Toro Rosso is all about just as Minardi was, to a lesser extent. With the lack of testing available, F1 needs this team. And I am inclined to believe they know what they are doing.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 08:50 (Ref:3503203)   #58
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Since their first season Toro Rosso has fielded nine different drivers, three have progressed to Red Bull, (Vettel, Ricciardo and Kvyat) six have dropped out of Formula 1 entirely, should Ricciardo and Kvyat prove up to the job for Red Bull, there may not be a vacancy for a Toro Rosso driver to move up. Where would that leave Verstappen? Stuck with a second division team or allowed to move on to a rival 'top team'?

Toro drivers do not have a long life span, so no matter how good a driver may be a glittering career is not guaranteed. I suppose it may well depend on how good a car the Toro Rosso is and if it will allow a talent to shine.

But young Max may well yet prove to be another wasted talent due to circumstance he cannot control.

Just a few thoughts.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 09:36 (Ref:3503217)   #59
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Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
The Verstappens of this world have been racing since they were 8 .
8?

Max was already on a kart when he was 4 years old
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 09:48 (Ref:3503220)   #60
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I have this vague recollection of a chap called Kimi Raikkonen, who came into F1 with bugger all experience (but what he had was top-notch and floor-wiping in terms of wins) but did really rather well (and was very popular to boot).

Perhaps I'm mistaken?

OK, he was a little bit older than Max, but still. 23 single seat car races was all he'd done, and I don't see any retrospective hand-wringing over that.
indeed, Max has driven more races than Kimi did when he came to F1.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 10:27 (Ref:3503243)   #61
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McLaren have also had nine drivers in that time, if we count Alonso twice.

Three out of nine drivers promoted to multiple title winning Red Bull in a decade? Pretty good going that, no? Ricciardo and Vettel have proven themselves and Kvyat hasn't yet driven.

Of the remaining six:

Liuzzi was a waster.

Buemi is now a WEC champion and Le Mans contender.

Alguersari was never good enough.

Bourdais has had a glorious career.

Speed has earned a neat amount of money and bundles of fun in NASCAR.

Vergne should do OK as well.

Hardly bad is it?
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 11:49 (Ref:3503270)   #62
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My view is that if a 17/18 year old can drive a Formula 1 car then there is something wrong with Formula 1. It should take many years experience to get to the level required to handle a proper F1 car because they should be difficult and, yes, even dangerous to drive. It would appear that a quick season in karting and; Bang! You are a Grand Prix driver.
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Feeder series will be irellevent if any young well-connected Max can step into a Formula One car after go karts and a few FR/F3 races.

Why would you bother putting the expense of your young charge through all the rigours and risk of F4/3 GP3/GP2?
Unfortunately I agree.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 12:08 (Ref:3503274)   #63
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McLaren have also had nine drivers in that time, if we count Alonso twice.

Three out of nine drivers promoted to multiple title winning Red Bull in a decade? Pretty good going that, no? Ricciardo and Vettel have proven themselves and Kvyat hasn't yet driven.

Of the remaining six:

Liuzzi was a waster.

.



Buemi is now a WEC champion and Le Mans contender.

Alguersari was never good enough.

Bourdais has had a glorious career.

Speed has earned a neat amount of money and bundles of fun in NASCAR.

Vergne should do OK as well.


Hardly bad is it?

No argument Knowlsey ()

However, Toro Rosso is the 'young driver academy' for Red Bull, and is in that context that I couched my post, whereas McLaren are shopping on the open market - so to speak

I fully acknowledge the talent that RB has brought along, BUT we are talking about Formula 1, and furthering one's career in GP's.

The point of my post is that the opportunities for Toro Rosso drivers is limited, had Vettel left for Ferrari in 2014 maybe Vergne would now be at Red Bull.

Just a few ramblings of an aging mind.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 12:15 (Ref:3503277)   #64
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Opportunities are certainly limited. But that is true across the grid. And they always gave been since the sport stopped making widows.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 16:09 (Ref:3503321)   #65
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Maybe it's because I live across the pond, but I'm not sure what the big deal is? He turns 18 this year, that's plenty old enough. Does he have the skill is the question.
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 17:58 (Ref:3503346)   #66
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some viewing material for those who don't know Max that well yet

http://www.redbull.tv/episodes/14216...-the-limelight

http://www.redbull.tv/episodes/14216...-certification
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 19:29 (Ref:3503376)   #67
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Won't somebody please think of the children!
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 19:47 (Ref:3503385)   #68
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Maybe it's because I live across the pond, but I'm not sure what the big deal is? He turns 18 this year, that's plenty old enough. Does he have the skill is the question.
absolutely!

plus Red Bull has kids just as young doing far more dangerous things. this is just what they do imo.

its sports and i want to see athletes do special things and challenge the accepted order and a driver of Max's age certainly qualifies as challenging the accepted order.

also when i see a youngster get a shot then i wonder why not some ladies?
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 21:18 (Ref:3503417)   #69
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Won't somebody please think of the children!
Hey Adam...
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Old 9 Feb 2015, 21:22 (Ref:3503419)   #70
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if i recognize that as a Simpson reference am i considered young or old?

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Old 10 Feb 2015, 10:12 (Ref:3503610)   #71
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I have been browsing through some old tapes from our local radio station recently, where I report on motor sport, and I found that in 1993 I referred to the Footwoork F1 team testing a couple of promising young drivers for 1994, and I referred to "Dutch sensation Jos Verstappen, winner of the German F3 Championship".

Does that make me old?
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Old 10 Feb 2015, 10:37 (Ref:3503617)   #72
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I have been browsing through some old tapes from our local radio station recently, where I report on motor sport, and I found that in 1993 I referred to the Footwoork F1 team testing a couple of promising young drivers for 1994, and I referred to "Dutch sensation Jos Verstappen, winner of the German F3 Championship".

Does that make me old?
Nah Bauble console yourself with: "It's never too late to have a happy childhood!"

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Old 10 Feb 2015, 11:08 (Ref:3503623)   #73
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He's so young he's actually still got Acne.

This does, though, seem to be one of those threads that will go back and bite you in the arse. Like when Kimi was considered not ready until about Lap 1 on in FP1 Melbourne. Of course, hindsight is wonderful.

I feel Mekola's concern is misplaced. Perhaps a better concern would be why new drivers are adapting so easily. Is it just more professional preparation or the way the cars handle (more predictably? less physical?)?
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Old 10 Feb 2015, 11:10 (Ref:3503625)   #74
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I have been browsing through some old tapes from our local radio station recently, where I report on motor sport, and I found that in 1993 I referred to the Footwoork F1 team testing a couple of promising young drivers for 1994, and I referred to "Dutch sensation Jos Verstappen, winner of the German F3 Championship".

Does that make me old?
If it does, then it does me too and I'm in my thirties. I'm of a time when both sex and motor racing were dangerous.
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Old 10 Feb 2015, 12:41 (Ref:3503647)   #75
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I'll attempt to take this thread seriously, which I struggled after the child exploitation and welfare part
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I feel Mekola's concern is misplaced. Perhaps a better concern would be why new drivers are adapting so easily. Is it just more professional preparation or the way the cars handle (more predictably? less physical?)?
This is an interesting point. Is it easier? Should we be worried about the state of F1 and how easy it is?

We aren't comparing the same situations. We are considering how easily someone who has years of karting under their belt can drive an F1 car. What we need to compare is how easily someone who is older, but has less racing experience adapts. Would a Graham Hill be able to do what he did in the current era. Probably not!

Historically there wasn't the support that the current drivers get in terms of knowledge, training and teaching.

There is much bigger pool of drivers to try out and find the huge potential talent. Which is what Max is.
There is also a difference between being able to drive it and drive it quick. As we can see the gaps between the front and the back of the grid for cars is pretty small relative to the old days. The gap between good and great is smaller and this may play out with the drivers too.

What we have here are differences between today and the past. These are interpreted as a bad thing, as is normal in human nature. They are just differences.

I look in the past and I see examples of young inexperienced drivers coming in and being quick. I also look in the past and see examples of older inexperienced drivers being quick - that doesn't happen now. So, was it easier in the past?
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