Mansell v Senna Hill v Schuey

[Damon]

Lets not go here because it's been discussed to death here. All I will mention is Brundell's comment as Schu tried the same on Villeneuve in '97: "it hasn't worked this time Michael".

[ferrari_mark]

I don't like discussing the bad things about MS...it just sort of came up. I agree it's been discussed to death just about eveywhere.

[Gore]

I can imagine that Adelaide '94 had been done to death here, but for what it is worth my opinion was always that, had I been Schuey, not knowing what state my car was in after touching the wall, I would have turned in... having said that, I would also have turned in at Jerez '97 in the heat of the moment, indefensible though it was, so maybe I'm just a bad person...

Back to topic, I was pretty unhappy when Hill won the WDC, didn't think he was worthy of it (not that other unworthies haven't won it); impressive though Hungary '97 was, the fact that it was one of only 2 weekends in which the Arrows looked like a racing car always suggested to me that it was a case of tyres rather then driver.

On the positive side, I would rather spend a night drinking with him than most of today's F1 grid--seems like an intelligent and entertaining guy.

[Damon]

Hill wasn't the only one on Bridgestones Gore, and sure as hell wasn't in the best car carry those tyres.

[Stephenw]

you can't take Hungary '97 away from Hill that was an incredible drive...

[Gore]

Yeah, fair play, that was a good move on Schu, but still seems odd that the car worked for one weekend and not the other 16 (Hill was always a Hungaroring specialist, but my recollection is that Diniz was unsually competitive relaitive to the rest of the field in Hungary too).

[Hungary 89]

My impression of that race is that Hill always was looking for some demon setup that would allow him to have a shout at a decent result. The occasions he got it right Were Hungary and Jerez (qualifying) The occasions he got it wrong were he a Diniz looked evenly matched.

I wouldn't agree that Hill was not worthy of the Championship but I don't want to get into an argument about it

[Champ69]

I have major doubts about Hills ability as a driver, yes he won races and a championship but he seems to be lacking something. He was never a match to MS.

[Mr V]

If DH was lacking something with 20 poles, 22 wins, 20 odd fastest laps and a WDC what does that make the others who were driving at the same time as him?

[Stephenw]

umm....not in the all conquering Williams that's what...

[Valve Bounce]

Mario was a great driver also.

[ferrari_mark]

DH would be the first to admit that he wasn't a F1 great. If he'd started a lot younger who knows what he could have achieved. His record is still pretty impressive despite being in the best car. After all Hakkinen only really ever won in the best car and he is considered by many as a great driver.

[ASCII Man]

I don't think if he started a lot younger that he would have achieved more.
Not with Senna, Mansell, Piquet and Prost at their best anyway.
IMO, i would rank DH about the same as Boutsen if he started in the mid-to-late 80's.

[ferrari_mark]

I guess your right. Also if he had started younger he may never have got the break with Williams.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Stephenw
umm....not in the all conquering Williams that's what...

Makes you wonder why those others weren't in an all conquering Williams then doesn't it? I'm not saying that Damon was better than MS, but he was better than most of the rest of the grid.

BTW, was he in an all conquering Williams when he was robbed of victory at Hungary 97 or when he won at Spa 98 when the only man faster than him was MS in a Ferrari?

[Damon]

So Schu's wins are only down to the "all conquering" Ferrari are they? Come on! No he wasn't as good as Schu but he wasn't that far behind Hakkinen in real terms.

[bacon sandwich]

Back to the topic - no Damon is not as good as Schuey as a race driver in that he was superb out front but couldn't race in the pack - but he is twice the man and he definitely deserved the WDC.
He was a fantastic tester - it cannot be purely coincidental that whilst Damon was with Arrows they nearly won a race over a Ferrari and that Jordan had their best two years ever whilst he was there winning 4 times (competitively - not by chance!). What happened in 2000 after Damo had retired - they went back to mid to rear field.
Yes Damo had the best car when he won the WDC but totally agree with ferrari mark - Hakkinen et al have won with the best car and they're not all slated like Damo - the price he pays for being British I s'pose!

[Stephenw]

puuuuhhhhlease. Do not use Damon and Mika in the same sentence.

No doubt Hill had his flashes of brilliance, but give me a break, he's far from a Mika H. Had Schumacher went to Williams or Mclaren in '96...or even stayed at Benneton, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I mean some of the stuff here is comical; Damon won in the Jordan in 1998 because half the field was taken out at the start and Schumacher crashed out and the younger Schumacher was under team orders...

LMAO.

whatever guys...

[Damon]

Keeping youself out of trouble in those conditions is a skill in it's own right. Mika never showed any more flashes of brilliance. He was ordinary to say the least until the Mclaren came good and it says a lot for Schu that he managed to take Hakk down to the wire in far from equal machinery. I'm also guessing the same is true of Fisi's Brazil win then?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Stephenw
puuuuhhhhlease. Do not use Damon and Mika in the same sentence.

So, your saying that Damon only won the WDC because he was in the best car, when exactly did Mika win it when he wasn't in the best car? Plus, when did Mika win a race in a car that was the same standard (i.e of a lower standard) than the Jordan of 1998?

Don't get me wrong, Mika was a good driver, but don't make him out to be any better than Damon when what he acheived where in the same conditions as Damon.

[Sato san]

Lets talk about Mika in a Lotus , thats much better !

[Damon]

Yes, a certain underated Brit made him look quite ordinary during his time there.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by ferrari_mark
At the time I thought it was MS fault and that he deliberatly blocked DH, but the more I see it the more it looks like a racing incident.

Think you should have kept your original idea about it - MS turned in to block him and only the fact that he got up on two wheels makes it look like DH caused it. There was a gap, DH rushed for it and MS chopped him. A damaged car did not impede him from turning in at an earlier apex to block DH on the inside.

[Hungary 89]

I would have to agree with earlier sentiments that Damon was not as good a driver as Mika but I wouldn't put him far behind.

On those team orders in Begium 98, I have heard a few people pick up on that as a reason to knock Damon but its a bit unfair. The team with its first win and its first one two in its grasp did not want to see both cars taken off so they elected to tell the drivers to hold station. That is not to say that Damon could not have held Ralf off anyway

Safe in the knowledge that he was not going to be challenged Hill then backed off which could account for the fact that Ralf was so close to him at the end.

To assume that Ralf was cruelly robbed of a maiden win in that situation is a bit wide of the mark

[ferrari_mark]

Didn't DH have a damaged tyre or puncture or something? I thought they said that if he had to do one more lap the tyre would have failed. I think that's why he backed off at the end. I agree though, it would have been too much of a risk to let RS try to pass him.