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Old 18 Aug 2017, 12:58 (Ref:3760146)   #151
S griffin
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
the last 3 meetings have been an RWD parade


And what about all the seasons past where meetings has been dominated by FWD? Maybe they've just got better cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:07 (Ref:3760147)   #152
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And what about all the seasons past where meetings has been dominated by FWD? Maybe they've just got better cars
but it's just 2 RWD teams and the rest of about 10 are FWD

doesn't sound proportionate at all
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:08 (Ref:3760148)   #153
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But Sheds will still come from nowhere in race 3 at Brands and win the Championship. Possibly wiith some super duper overtaking button fitted by Mr Dick Dastardly after race 2...

what about the other FWD guys?

Tingram , M. Jackson , Austin , Cook etc , they all can't compete with RWD cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 13:19 (Ref:3760152)   #154
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S griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridS griffin should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
but it's just 2 RWD teams and the rest of about 10 are FWD



doesn't sound proportionate at all


So you're saying RWD need to have 10 teams for it to be fair? Get over it, both FWD and RWD are legal and different characteristics suit different tracks
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 14:24 (Ref:3760159)   #155
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Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
what about the other FWD guys?

Tingram , M. Jackson , Austin , Cook etc , they all can't compete with RWD cars
I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 14:31 (Ref:3760161)   #156
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crmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
I was dreaming too when a Honda Civic won a race at Snetterton,
and when there were two Honda Civics on another podium at Snetterton,
and when a Honda Civic was second to Ingram.

It's all a bit Honda friendly at the moment, so they need to have their brakes degraded somehow?

Or perhaps, people should accept that RWD cars go well at some circuits, and a few of those are close together in the calendar?

Honda fans should be rejoicing in the fact that Shedden is only 12 points behind Sutton after the recent tracks, and that Sutton's teammate has already confirmed that he won't concede race wins for him as it will hurt his pocket.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 14:47 (Ref:3760163)   #157
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
I could have sworn that I saw Ingram win race 3 at Knockhill. Must have been dreaming!
nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 15:04 (Ref:3760166)   #158
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crmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcrmalcolm should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
Croft R1 - Jackson podium
Snetterton R1 - Goff, Neal podium

At the RWD tracks, it is possible for a FWD to get a podium without reverse grid.

At Brands Indy R1, FWD took top 5 places
Donington R1, FWD podium lock-out
Thruxton R1, FWD top 5 with Honda podium lock-out

Did you call for something to be done about FWD dominance after the first 3 events?
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 15:15 (Ref:3760169)   #159
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Mike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike Harte should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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nice straw man


you know very well they couldn't be on podium on their own, only with reversed grid
So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 16:35 (Ref:3760189)   #160
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It all balances out pretty damn nicely and the racing is competitive each weekend.

What we do have are some people who will moan and whinge and snipe a lot - Neal, Plato, Shedden in particular come to mind - and others like Tingram, Collard, Sutton who will simply get on with doing the best they can.

Possibly that is why I respect the latter three examples more. They may not be champions (yet!) but to my mind have a far better, more positive outlook and are better people for it.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 16:40 (Ref:3760191)   #161
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OK, so all the arguments about FWD vs RWD got my stats bone twitching.

Taking the records from Wikipedia for all NGTC seasons (2011 onward) and making my own assumptions from memory about which cars had FWD and RWD - so there may be one or two errors, which I can quickly correct if necessary, here's the details about 'dominance':

Year2011201220132014201520162017
Front3027241813199
Rear03612171112
Front %100908060436343
Rear %0102040573757
        
R21 F211816128149
R21 R035913712
R21 F%100867657386743
R21 R%0142443623357

Obviously 2017 is a partial season so far, so I put the comparative data in for all seasons up to and including race 21.

Looks to me like a very roughly 60/40 split either way from 2014 onwards. That tends to indicate to me that the rule makers are getting things right.

It might *feel* like one drivetrain is dominating. It doesn't look like it, though.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 17:31 (Ref:3760202)   #162
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.

It might *feel* like one drivetrain is dominating. It doesn't look like it, though.
have you seen the current standings ?

Turkington 265 RWD
Sutton 261 RWD

Shedden 253
Collard 248 RWD
Ingram 204
Neal 172


if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 17:33 (Ref:3760204)   #163
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So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
and you didn't see that Shedden drove a defensive race to the WSR BMW and BMR Subarus ? that it's very likely if he didn't block them they would have gotten Tingram too


if Tingram could have does this in Race 1 or 2 naturally then fair play but he can't like no other FWD car either
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 19:12 (Ref:3760224)   #164
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So, as I wasn't dreaming, I am pretty sure that the uncompetitiveness of the Toyota must be the reason that Ingram pulled away from the rest of the competitors after both of the safety cars in that race, and why Sheddon came second.
Ignores performance ballast, tyre choice, and the fastest laps and race dominance by the heaviest car on the hard tyre in race 2. And qualifying. And race 1.

FWD qualified 1-2-3-4-6-10.
Race 1 Finished 1-2-3-4-5-8
Race 2 finished 1-2-3-4-5
Race 3 finished 3-4-5-6

People are going to use the reverse grid race 3 as the example of how RWD cars aren't dominating a grid largely filled with FWD? Am I missing something here?

I don't have a problem with the best team building the best car, winning the most races. But BTCC doesn't operate like that - it has a BoP system. And if you operate a BoP style system, and you have a race weekend that is completely one-sided and have cars running in team formation, you arsed it up. This also applies if RWD cars can't get near the front. Although not why Jason Plato can't get near the front whilst Sutton is fighting for the title.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 18 Aug 2017 at 19:19.
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Old 18 Aug 2017, 19:42 (Ref:3760238)   #165
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have you seen the current standings ?

Turkington 265 RWD
Sutton 261 RWD

Shedden 253
Collard 248 RWD
Ingram 204
Neal 172


if Shedden wasn't there you see total RWD dominance and a big points gap to the FWD cars
Well if Shedden didn't exist then Ingram and Neal would have quite a few more points.
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