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21 Dec 2003, 21:19 (Ref:817644)
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,814
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MotorSport's 20 Greatest Drivers
Not sure whether this should be here or in the historics forum so I'll let the moderators decide.
Just wondered what people thought of MotorSport's top 20 Sportscar list. It's for the period 1953-1992 (World Championship Years), hence the ommision of the pre-war greats and the best of the last few years. 1. Jacky Ickx 2. Striling Moss 3. Pedro Rodriguez 4. Derek Bell 5. Jo Siffert 6. Phil Hill 7. Olivier Gendebien 8. Hans Stuck 9. Bob Wollek 10. Henri Pescarolo 11. Jochen Mass 12. Stefan Bellof 13. Brian Redman 14. Vic Elford 15. Juan Manuel Fangio 16. Mario Andretti 17. Tony Brooks 18. John Surtees 19. Martin Brundle 20. Klaus Ludwig I might put Brundle higher and fiddle with the order slightly myself, but I reckon this is one of the better 'greatest' lists. Most of the names are there, though I would perhaps have put Al Holbert or Mark Donohue (if we were to count Can-Am) in. What do people think? Last edited by krt917; 21 Dec 2003 at 21:20. |
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21 Dec 2003, 23:34 (Ref:817745)
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14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 42,596
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A decent enough list. I feel the same as you krt917. I don't really disagree with it strongly enough to need to change it!
I'd have put Siffert and Rodriguez next to each other, because they should be! 
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__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
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22 Dec 2003, 03:21 (Ref:817930)
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#3 | ||
 Race OfficialVeteran
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 4,125
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Siffert and Rodriguez should be level with, and clanging into, each other. Those were the days!
A great list. I would look, then think about it, and then find the name I was searching for on the list already. As an American I would want to include Gurney, and Foyt, for Le Mans '67. |
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__________________
You live and learn. At any rate, you live. Douglas Adams
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22 Dec 2003, 06:49 (Ref:817984)
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#4 | ||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,482
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A hard work !
I'd put Henri (Pescarolo) before Bob (Wolleck), if there's an order... Henri won four times, Unfortunate Bob always failled... |
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22 Dec 2003, 09:16 (Ref:818035)
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#5 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,763
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Quote:
Good list though |
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22 Dec 2003, 09:57 (Ref:818053)
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#6 | |||
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Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,482
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Quote:
Bob may have been better, but it's difficult to say who is better than who. I was not sure, few days ago, that Mario was such a good sportscars pilot ; but I watched "Speed Merchants" since, and I changed my mind... Those 20 pilots deserve their place here, no doubt. |
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22 Dec 2003, 10:06 (Ref:818058)
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Racer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 436
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The thing I find interesting about the list is that not one of the drivers listed won at all three classics, i.e. Daytona, Le Mans and Sebring. Actually, who has won all three? Of the top of my head, I can only think of Andy Wallace.
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22 Dec 2003, 10:53 (Ref:818092)
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#8 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,133
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A couple of drivers who not on the list are Graham Hill, (a damm fine driver and my all time favorite), and Chris Amon. Both of who won LM and at least one other classic.
I think D Bell, Al Holbart K Ludwig have all won Daytona, Sebring & LM to name a few Maybe ickx as well |
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__________________
Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005
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22 Dec 2003, 12:01 (Ref:818137)
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#9 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,763
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It would be great if (dreaming) they put Stucky in the TRG Porsche and they went out and won Daytona again , then we could add him to the "Ive won all three" winners podium .
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22 Dec 2003, 12:13 (Ref:818140)
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#10 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,390
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Dinger Bell has never won at Sebring has he? And I think Ludwig has had a class win but no overall win at Daytona
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22 Dec 2003, 12:32 (Ref:818150)
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#11 | ||
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Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,567
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I've just changed the title of the thread so it doesn't cause offence to the non-trainspotting F1 fans.....
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__________________
44 days...
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22 Dec 2003, 12:36 (Ref:818152)
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#12 | ||
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Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,567
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Its got to be a good list, I think. We might tinker with it a bit (and I agree that Holbert and Hill should probably be on it), but essentially, virtually all of the right names are there, I think.
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__________________
44 days...
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22 Dec 2003, 14:54 (Ref:818230)
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Racer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 436
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Quote:
Back to the top sportscar drivers. A quick look around at lunch time and I think the following have all won each of the three major sports car races (Daytona, Sebring and Le Mans). Jackie Oliver, Mauro Baldi, Andy Wallace, Hurley Haywood, AJ Foyt and Al Holbert. Jacky Ickx wone the Daytona 6 hours but not the 24. Anyone have the years? Incidently, four of those qualify for the MotorSport top 20 (i.e. up to 1992), but none are included. Discuss......... |
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22 Dec 2003, 16:03 (Ref:818263)
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#14 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,133
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Your right, I should have checked first re the triple crown so to speak,
however looking at the to 20 list the more you look the more names you think should be there that are missing, G.Hill as I have already said, he must be on it, who else spans TT winning drives in the early 60's via many GP and indy races to a winning drive at LM in the 70's, top bloke. Derek Warwick would be on my list as well, along with Oliver, Holbert and Haywood. |
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__________________
Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005
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22 Dec 2003, 16:16 (Ref:818269)
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#15 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 356
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what about J-L Schlesser, he was quite something in the Sauber-Mercedes ??? Along with Baldi, Ludwig, Thackwell, Mass, etc.
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22 Dec 2003, 16:53 (Ref:818283)
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,227
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Quote:
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__________________
You're either at Le Mans, or waiting for Le Mans. ('86, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91, '93, '94, '95, '97, '98, '00, '01, '02, '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14, '15, '16, '17)
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22 Dec 2003, 16:54 (Ref:818285)
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#17 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,227
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Just noticed Tiff Needell isn't on the list??
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__________________
You're either at Le Mans, or waiting for Le Mans. ('86, '87, '88, '89, '90, '91, '93, '94, '95, '97, '98, '00, '01, '02, '03, '04, '05, '06, '07, '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, '13, '14, '15, '16, '17)
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22 Dec 2003, 19:08 (Ref:818390)
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#18 | ||
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Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,567
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No, he isn't.
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__________________
44 days...
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22 Dec 2003, 19:21 (Ref:818407)
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#19 | ||
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Take That Fan
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,104
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I picked up Motor Sport in WHSmiths on Saturday and I have to say the list is just about there.
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__________________
There is only one way of life and thats your own ! ! !
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22 Dec 2003, 19:33 (Ref:818417)
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#20 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,147
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Seems to me that, in particular, Can-Am (Donohue, McLaren) and IMSA (Holbert, HAYWOOD!) are very underrepresented.
What were the criteria for this list? |
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__________________
... Since all men live in darkness, who believes something is not a test of whether it is true or false. I have spent years trying to get people to ask simple questions: What is the evidence, and what does it mean? -Bill James
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22 Dec 2003, 19:58 (Ref:818436)
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#21 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,763
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Neither is Jan Lammer's !!!
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22 Dec 2003, 20:14 (Ref:818446)
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#22 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 897
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Great list, but I don't think I woiuld have dear Derek quite so high and Martin much higher.
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__________________
John M
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22 Dec 2003, 20:39 (Ref:818468)
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#23 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 13,763
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Quote:
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22 Dec 2003, 23:49 (Ref:818567)
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#24 | ||||
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Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,814
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Quote:
Quote:
Honourable mentions also went to: Mauro Baldi Peter Collins Jo Bonnier Hans Herrmann Dan Gurney Chris Amon Gerard Larrousse Rolf Stommelen Michael Schumacher Bruce McLaren Denny Hulme Al Holbert Hurley Haywood Peter Gregg The most obious omissions, I guess, are Donohue, Hawthorn and Lammers. You could argue that none of them did that much winning in World Sportscar races, but I'd still consider them. Last edited by krt917; 22 Dec 2003 at 23:50. |
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23 Dec 2003, 00:17 (Ref:818581)
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#25 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,699
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How does Michael Schumacher get honorable mention when guys like Raul Boesel, Jean-Louis Schlesser, and Teo Fabi won drivers titles in WSC Group C? I believe Schumacher only won one race in Group C. Correct me if I'm missing something on this one.
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__________________
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." Albert Einstein
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