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Old 9 Nov 2001, 09:30 (Ref:172397)   #1
H16
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A Dallara Judd in Grand Am?

I was always under the impression that the Grand Am cars were low tech, but I saw in Daytona where a Dallara Judd was entered, the same Dallara that ran fourth at Le Mans this year with Mopar power. I was suprised such an advanced car would run in that series.
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Old 9 Nov 2001, 12:33 (Ref:172436)   #2
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Re: A Dallara Judd in Grand Am?

Yes, Doran will run a car in GA, possibly some ALMS rounds, and also two FIASCC rounds. (I believe they will have 2 chassis - the car they have now was the very first one built, and is the only one with mountings for a full hoop; later cars don't have that anymore).

Their GA plans could still come to naught - they have a Yokohama tire deal, and GA have nominated Dunlop and Goodyear as their "spec. tire" suppliers.
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Old 9 Nov 2001, 15:08 (Ref:172497)   #3
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I heard the second chassis is meant as a reserve chassis.
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Old 9 Nov 2001, 16:43 (Ref:172536)   #4
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There is a huge misconception about the Grand Am, I had it too. Teams like Audi and Panoz are not denied entry on the basis they are factory efforts. They are denied entry because they will not sell versions of their current cars for the $750,000 price cap placed by Grand Am. If they sell customer cars of their current rce vehicles for that price they are welcome, but Audi and Panoz need more because of their development costs.
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Old 9 Nov 2001, 17:04 (Ref:172548)   #5
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Originally posted by Geva racing
I heard the second chassis is meant as a reserve chassis.
The second car will be a strictly single roll hoop one.
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 14:55 (Ref:172939)   #6
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Here is the Dallara double roll hoop. I was unaware that it was still required by the GA, but they wouldn't put it there for nothing. I think it is utterly silly that we have a division in sportscar racing over a roll bar. Just make everyoune run the double hoop and get it over with. The cars will look more symetrical and maybe better looking. This piece of trash looks horrible and tacked on.

Remember the 1998 BMW LMP? It had a ful width hoop and it looked good.

We wouldn't be talking about this if they just put the roofs back on.
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 15:06 (Ref:172943)   #7
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Originally posted by Dr. Austin
This piece of trash looks horrible and tacked on.
Well, it is...
Seriously, in this picture the cowling, or cover that is supposed to be on the hoop wasn't on. With that, the whole thing looks a somewhat less "unnatural". They couldn't get it finished in time for practice, and only taped it on for a couple of laps; I don't know if they used it in the race. Some pictures can be found at www.fastdetails.com, and at www.grand-am.com .

Last edited by cybersdorf; 10 Nov 2001 at 15:07.
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 15:52 (Ref:172959)   #8
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One thing I worry about is the safety of tack-on roll bars. The chassis wasn't designed for it. I am not sure how deep onto the monoque the tubes run. It appears they hacked the original hoop off, so who knows how well this one will protect the driver?

After Alboreto's accident, I am inclined to think a full steel roll cage and roof is the best answer. Sure, I like the coupes alot better, but that doesn't affect my judgment on this. Ok, maybe a little, but I've seen alot of coupes land on their lids and the guys walked away.

A roll bar can dig in and get ripped off, but a roof is more likely to bounce or slide. Plenty of guys got 962's upside down at big speeds, but everyone came out ok. We have seen Laurrari and Bell both go upside down at big Daytona speeds, but they are still with us. And remember the twin flipping Nissans at Road Atlanta in '92? How about the Mercedes aerobatic team?

Nearly everyone wants to see the roofs on, and I think that would not only kill offf the ugly roll bar controversy, but inprove safety too. I was at the historics at Sebring and saw a wheel weight absolutely smash a headlight cover. What theat would do to a visor or helmet doesn't bear thinking about.

Besides that, a good look at the history of sportscar racing shows the cars and crowds are at their biggest and best when they run coupes. LeMans 98 is a good example of a bumper crop of cars and most were coupes. Compare that grid to the seven open topped prototypes at sebring.

I think people tend to identify more with the coupes because it represents something that looks like a road car. The LMP's just don't do it. I don't want to see the spyders banned because the history of sportscar racing is full of great cars like the Ferrari 312pb, Matra 670B and the 936, but when you compare that to the 917, 956 days, well, no comparison.
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 16:59 (Ref:172983)   #9
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Originally posted by Dr. Austin
...but when you compare that to the 917, 956 days, well, no comparison.
That is very true, and no, I don't agree with you
I grew up with Gp.C/GTP, I like the open cars much better.

When did the first closed car win Le Mans? The majority of all the winning cars must still be "topless". The people loved the D-Types, they loved the '50s Mercs (although that love ralationship ended rather abruptly), the Matras, the Alpines, the 908, 936,... - easily as much as they loved the Jags, 962s, Saubers, and the rest of the Gp.C brigade.

Sportscar racing is about diversity; it is the mix that makes it so infinitely much more interesting than F1 or NASCAR. I think the rules should not rule out one concept, they shoulf allow both.

One more thing - and yes, this comparison is blatantly unfair - how many people died in Gp.C/GTP cars, and how many in WSC/SR/LMP cars? - The idea is to give the new GTPs a carbon fiber "survival cell" roll ove structure, so let's hope they will make the racing safer.

Alboreto's accident was, imho, not survivable - in any car - because of the high speed at which it happened.

Last edited by cybersdorf; 10 Nov 2001 at 17:05.
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 18:20 (Ref:172995)   #10
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by cybersdorf
[B]

"That is very true, and no, I don't agree with you
I grew up with Gp.C/GTP, I like the open cars much better."

I like both, I just prefer the coupes. But there is little doubt that the crowds were bigger for the days of the coupes. And manufacturer involvement was bigger as well.


"the Matras, the Alpines, the 908, 936,... - easily as much as they loved the Jags, 962s, Saubers, and the rest of the Gp.C brigade."

We all love those cars, but the people stayed away in droves in the '70's when the big 5-litre coupes went away. And when IMSA initiated the WSC concept, well it all fell apart. I think you are right when you say there should be both types. That is when people's interest piqued.

"Sportscar racing is about diversity; it is the mix that makes it so infinitely much more interesting than F1 or NASCAR."

Oh, yeah. 100% agree. Some of my favorite cars are the 936, the 908/2/3 and the Matra 650, but they didn't have those gaudy jungle gym roll bars on them. Sure, there is a real place for open top cars, but I'de like to see the coupes compete on equal footing, which they are discussing. But equalizing cars with completely different aero characteristics will be difficult.

Remember when they ran the 917's and 908's? It was pretty interesting and showed how far Porsche would go to win. Both cars were interesting, but I'm pretty sure we don't want to see a return to completely different cars for different circuits. And I sure don't want to see us go back to the Targa and old N.ring, but I lament their loss.


"I think the rules should not rule out one concept, they shoulf allow both."

Oh, absolutely. But I would like to see them compete to the same set of rules, but with and without roofs.

"One more thing - and yes, this comparison is blatantly unfair - how many people died in Gp.C/GTP cars, and how many in WSC/SR/LMP cars? - "

Yes and no. The only GroupC/GTP deaths that I can recall is Winklehock and Bellof, both massive head on shunts that made no difference to the roll over construction. And Jo Gartner, who tore down a telegraph pole and oak tree in the process, another fatal deal no matter what kind of car. All were very sad.

Alboreto's accident was an upside down deal, and it appears that the roll bar was ripped off. But we have seen plenty of guys walk away from inverted coupes. I didn't see the accident or a really good picture of the car, so I am only speculating that he would have had a better chance with a roof. Personally, I think a roof offers better protection, but I have seen them ripped off too.


"The idea is to give the new GTPs a carbon fiber "survival cell" roll ove structure, so let's hope they will make the racing safer."

Don't you think that would work even better with a roof on the car? Look at the picture i posted of the Mercedes. That puppy landed on it's roof at God knows what speed, but Webber lived to do it again the very next day. Given the choice, I rather risk it in a coupe. I have a great story about what Webber said after his second shunt and was asked if he was going to try the car again, but I can't tell it here. At least I can't quote him, but you can imagine. Problem was he said it in front of about a dozen press people and Norbert Haugg. He has not driven a Mercedes since.



"Alboreto's accident was, imho, not survivable - in any car - because of the high speed at which it happened."

Sadly, the result was what it was. But hopefully Audi has given the car a really good look and can come up with even better ideas for protecting the drivers. Audi claims that the R8's roll bar exceeds the FIA test requirement by EIGHT times, so it must have been a hell of a hit.

One thing for both kinds of car is that a suitable kind of head restraint system should be required. CART has just annonuced that they will require them on all circuits and I am disappointed that ALMS and IRL are not following suit. I think all sanctioning bodies should be embarrased that NASCAR beat them all to the punch on a safety issue.

So, we really don't disagree on much besides our preferences, but that just gives us something to talk about, right?
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 18:35 (Ref:172997)   #11
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Originally posted by Dr. Austin
Don't you think that would work even better with a roof on the car?
Actually, that's what I meant - I was referring to the proposed 2004 GTP regs. If the roof offers more protection, then so be it
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 19:48 (Ref:173014)   #12
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Originally posted by cybersdorf

Actually, that's what I meant - I was referring to the proposed 2004 GTP regs. If the roof offers more protection, then so be it
I haven't seen the new regulations, but hopefully it will encourage more manufacturer participation. I also hope they give the coupes a fair shake, same tires and air restrictor and all that. But I want to see some roadsters in the field too. we don't a cookie cutter series.

I can't wait to see Porsche get involved because they always sell customer cars and that is a really good thing. Being able to buy the latest tweaks and having spares available without having to stock them makes it much more feasable for the privateer. I've heard stories that a privateer would wreck a Porsche and the parts would be picked out and waiting for them whhen they got to the Porsche parts truck. Can't beat that kind of service. Somehow I don't think Linhardt's team can't expect to be treated so well.

Any good links for old sportscar photos?
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 22:19 (Ref:173051)   #13
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Entertaining exchange of views, guys.

Just on the subject of roof or no roof, from an aesthetic point of view, I started off as a definite "roof" man, having cut my Le Mans and 1000kms teeth on 956/962s, Jags, Nissans, Toyotas, Saubers etc. One of my personal favourites was the Charge/Renown Mazda in that lovely orange and green colour scheme. (And how about the Shell Porsches of 1988 - the best looking 962's ever?).

But by the time the open-topped cars returned to Le Mans, I was so pleased to see them! (I thought the Gulf Kremer K8 of Bell/Laessig/Donovan in 1994 looked sensational). A couple of years later, the same (type of) car was a complete no-hoper. After 5-6 years of open-topped protos (mixed in with the likes of the gorgeous Toyota GT-One), I'd love to see more closed cars back at Le Mans. (And I'm not talking of 911 derivatives!!)

For me, whatever you think of the origins of this year's Bentley, it was something to drool over!

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Old 10 Nov 2001, 22:34 (Ref:173057)   #14
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Originally posted by Dr. Austin


I haven't seen the new regulations, but hopefully it will encourage more manufacturer participation. I also hope they give the coupes a fair shake, same tires and air restrictor and all that. But I want to see some roadsters in the field too. we don't a cookie cutter series.
From what I have heard, the 2004 regs will give us GTP - that is: coupés - only. No more roadsters. Because of this triple roll cage structure or whatever they called it.

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Any good links for old sportscar photos?
okay, I'm just going to unceremoniously throw these at you:

for misc. older/vintage cars:
http://www.lisa-racing.com/Galerie/DRM/drm.html
http://www.lisa-racing.com/Galerie/G...ruppe_c-1.html
http://dbetts.motorsport.org.uk/brg/
http://www.motorracingretro.i12.com/home.htm
http://autosportsltd.com/sm.html
http://www.oldracingcars.com/default.htm
http://www.tamsoldracecarsite.net/
http://www.evil-photographer.co.uk/cars/
this one's kind of fun too: http://triestemia.com/gallery/index.html#tsopi

some photographers' sites - occasionally with old/vintage pics:
http://www.ashcom.homestead.com/
http://www.garydodds.com/
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=10353&f=0
http://www.axs.to/~skykaitz/index3.html

to name but a few
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Old 10 Nov 2001, 22:38 (Ref:173061)   #15
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Originally posted by Aysedasi
(And how about the Shell Porsches of 1988 - the best looking 962's ever?).
I'd have to go for the later Dyson cars - as seen on www.mulsannescorner.com

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But by the time the open-topped cars returned to Le Mans, I was so pleased to see them! (I thought the Gulf Kremer K8 of Bell/Laessig/Donovan in 1994 looked sensational).
Still my favourite - the K8 was a very elegant racecar. And strangely enough, it felt good, in a sentimental sort of way, to see the 962 come back for yet another stab at Le Mans - the car that wouldn't die.
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