Is F1 rigged?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

well hockey, NBA, Football leagues all have scoring titles. not everyone who plays will have a realistic shot for the team title so sometimes athletes play for individual triumphs and often with great personal benefit to themselves, which given that a teams budget is finite a larger salary means a smaller pot for the rest of the team. but all really besides the point.

well now we are just dancing in circles!

maybe im missing something but i though you (and others against team orders) were saying that team orders are not understandable under any circumstance because cheating is anathema to sports competition.

if the drivers title is so important (because F1 is different than any other individual title/award/trophy in other team sports) shouldn't you guys be more accepting of team orders.

im guessing i should just go back and reread this thread in greater detail as this has probably already been answered.

I never actually posted anything about team orders. My initial post #11, pointed out that there's been rigging in other sports, where money is involved, so why not in F1? As far as I know there's no designated scoring title in the FA, Rugby or Cricket.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I never actually posted anything about team orders. My initial post #11, pointed out that there's been rigging in other sports, where money is involved, so why not in F1? As far as I know there's no designated scoring title in the FA, Rugby or Cricket.

didnt mean to single you out specifically and was just talking in general. bad use of language there.

not a follower of those three sports to be honest but i thought there was an award for goal scorer in FA but i dont know how important it is.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Sports like hockey, soccer, rugby etc... are not good examples to parallel with F1 because there is no individual objective. There is only a team objective.

they do exist in NHL, MLB, and NBA. its the reason that individual stats are even recorded in the first place and they are important for many many reasons. salaries for starers, marketing, and well just money. not every team has a chance to win the title so there are other pursuits and other titles to pursue.

examples: points leader in Hockey gets the Art Ross trophy and MVP gets the Hart Memorial trophy (close to 100 years old now and awarded each year), NBA has both an MVP and scoring title each year, and Baseball records so many stats its crazy but one of the most coveted single achievements in N.American sports is the home run leader although PED's has tainted it in recent years.

just because it is a team sport does not mean individual accomplishment is not measured or rewarded at the highest level so there is parallel.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

didnt mean to single you out specifically and was just talking in general. bad use of language there.

not a follower of those three sports to be honest but i thought there was an award for goal scorer in FA but i dont know how important it is.

I didn't think you were, .

The Premier League has the Golden Boot. Other sports do have awards but I think there's a big difference between awards and an actual individual World Championship and the prestige that comes with it, not to mention the amount of money involved, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of rigging results in F1. Obviously I hope it doesn't happen but I'm not so naïve to think that it couldn't.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

just because it is a team sport does not mean individual accomplishment is not measured or rewarded at the highest level so there is parallel.

I think we've got cross-wires here. The objective of these team sports is team based, not individual based. What you're talking about here are various stats tallies, which are interesting and sometimes have awards, but they're not the objective of the sport. They're a side show. Not for a moment would anybody consider that the top goal scorer in the premier league holds a similar status to the WDC in F1.

[wimiu012uk]

What about the £10 I had on Webber to win !!
Is Vettel involved in a betting scam, isn't that what some cricket players were doing ?
How can it be fair and just that team orders can alter the outcome of a bet ? is that not illegal as well as imoral ?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I think we've got cross-wires here.

probably a bit crossed wires going on but i am trying to understand all be it probably not doing a good job of it.

forgetting the other sports comparisons as we dont agree with how they can relate to each other so just looking at F1 and the pursuit of the drivers title, i dont think each driver has an equal chance at winning it so for me i dont see why it should be the aim of every driver to act like they will win the title.

surely some are pragmatic enough to realize thats not in the cards for them so they are there to pursue other goals within the sport whatever that may be. hence why i am willing to see other motivations for their willingness to defer to their team or team mate.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wimiu012uk

What about the £10 I had on Webber to win !!
Is Vettel involved in a betting scam, isn't that what some cricket players were doing ?
How can it be fair and just that team orders can alter the outcome of a bet ? is that not illegal as well as imoral ?

A good gambler would allow for the possibility of team orders in F1.

The cricketers were doing something different to cricket. Team orders are not the same in F1.

Oh and team orders was helping that particular £10 bet! You needed team orders to be obeyed.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

You don't have a players championship in hockey, soccer or rugby. The players only have a team objective. If this was the case in F1, there would be no issue whatsoever with team orders. The problem is, the blue riband of F1 is the WDC and when team orders fiddle with that, people understandably start to get agitated.

The point you make regarding the fiddling of the situation is valid, but that is not the situation I was referring to. If a team deliberately altered the 'natural competitive order' in a way that advantaged one driver towards the championship then that is a decision that demonstrates preference over integrity of competition and that is the fault. Asking drivers to hold the established position is not a fault.

[luke g28]

So last race of the season, your number 1 driver needs to finish a single place higher to win the championship, he is catching his team mate in the final 5 laps but will still be ~1 second behind at the chequered flag. Driver 2 has no chance of winning.

As a team owner / boss do you just say oh well, racings racing, or do you swap positions to have your driver win the championship and get your team name down in the history books as winning the WDC?

Personally I cant see any sane argument that says you wouldn't swap positions.

[chillibowl]

easy one for me, i would swap positions and i would have done so sooner if circumstances permitted.

i would expect to be fired if i didnt do it. also i would be expect to get fired if i couldnt make that call from the first race of the year and likewise i would expect to get fired if i did so in the first race but it turned out later that i backed the wrong horse.

in fact i would say that as the season goes on if Brawn's choice turns out to be the right one then job well done and if it turns out to be the wrong one then that in itself is an example of how this is not fixing but rather simply a bad judgement call.

fixing implies certainty of how your actions will affect the outcome and that doesnt exist here.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by luke g28

So last race of the season, your number 1 driver needs to finish a single place higher to win the championship, he is catching his team mate in the final 5 laps but will still be ~1 second behind at the chequered flag. Driver 2 has no chance of winning.

As a team owner / boss do you just say oh well, racings racing, or do you swap positions to have your driver win the championship and get your team name down in the history books as winning the WDC?

Personally I cant see any sane argument that says you wouldn't swap positions.

I would do so but would have pre-empted the decision but dealing with the possibility before the race so if it occurred the drivers and team admin would know what the expectation and state of the situation was. I have no trouble with that at all.
But when one driver takes advantage of the prearranged policy to ambush his team mate that IS unethical for someone in my employment and I would respond accordingly.

[davyboy]

The way F1 works, of course the positions would be swapped. Imagine what would happen if such a pre-arrangement resulted in a swimmer dropping from Olympic gold to silver at the behest of his squad coach in order to allow a colleague to take the higher accolade ? This highlights the difference between a sport [swimming] and a business [F1].

[garcon]

Originally Posted by davyboy

This highlights the difference between a sport [swimming] and a business [F1].

Utter nonsense.

It highlights the difference between two different sports.

Is road cycling not a sport?

[Paradise City]

It's a sport in which the teams that compete strategise to maximise their victory in the pursuit of the championship as the end goal. That still mets the standard of a sport.

Two things are at play here. The events themselves have diminished in their importance. A GP win in its own right is less important but more of a stepping stone to championship glory. The championship drama is promoted as it creates a year long drama and people coming back for more. Personally, I prefer it if races were promoted more as majors in of themselves.

It's promoted as a drivers championship. Whilst that's not false it's a little cheeky because clearly the teams interests get priority but the competition between the teams is full on.

Where the sport is badly compromised is dumb garbage like DRS which clearly plays to the lowest common denominator in an effort to stimulate already astronomically high TV viewing figures. But that's a topic for the other thread.

[MarkG]

I can't see how anyone can think F1 is rigged. Maybe the thread was started because of team orders and the controversy in Malaysia?

The discussion has moved on to the World Championship itself, both Manufacturers and Drivers. To me the Manufacturers' Championship is the more worthy of note actually. All teams have the same rules to work to and produce the best car they can, get the best drivers they can, and off they go. Team orders make a lot of sense.
Yes, over the years the drivers championship is the most appealing to the wider audience, but let's face it, it's not really a true measure of the best driver on the grid in a particular year is it? I like Jenson Button a lot, but in his winning year he wasn't the best driver on the grid. The champion driver is usually among the four drivers driving for the two best teams, not all drivers on the grid are contenders. Even is MotoGp, where riders skills are more obviously on display, this is true.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by garcon

Utter nonsense.

It's not 'utter nonsense'.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The way F1 works, of course the positions would be swapped. Imagine what would happen if such a pre-arrangement resulted in a swimmer dropping from Olympic gold to silver at the behest of his squad coach in order to allow a colleague to take the higher accolade ? This highlights the difference between a sport [swimming] and a business [F1].

i having trouble with what sports are similar or not but is it not unusual that on a team of swimmers one swimmer will by design push a pace they cannot sustain in order to create a more favourable scenario for another member of their team to succeed?

its why a 'team' of swimmers have more success when competing against a swimmer from a solo nation. its a common race tactic i thought anyways.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The way F1 works, of course the positions would be swapped. Imagine what would happen if such a pre-arrangement resulted in a swimmer dropping from Olympic gold to silver at the behest of his squad coach in order to allow a colleague to take the higher accolade ? This highlights the difference between a sport [swimming] and a business [F1].

[garcon]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It's not 'utter nonsense'.

Ok, let's just say I think you're wrong.

I think in part we've been diverted down a path of arguing semantics.

There's an entirely valid argument that says all professional sport is really a business. I could certainly argue that's the case in football - where the higher Premiership clubs pursue the money tree of Champions League qualification at the expense of silverware.

I suppose you could reflect that in F1, where teams may well pursue consistent scoring in the manufacturer's championship for the (significant) increases in prize money for final position at the expense of going all out for individual race wins.

Nobody seems to have picked up on my mentions of road cycling (eg Tour de France) - is this because nobody follows it or because they don't see it as relevant?

[Knowlesy]

Probably best they don't watch cycling tbh, as they may get very angry indeed.

Blatant teamwork AND drugs is a heady cocktail indeed!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by garcon

Ok, let's just say I think you're wrong.

To paraphrase Silvio Berlusconi - I'm very sorry that you thought I was wrong

And as for cycling, well yes, that makes F1 look positively angelic.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by davyboy

And as for cycling, well yes, that makes F1 look positively angelic.

Fair point.

[Marbot]

I once overheard a racing cyclist say to his team mates: "If this goes the way I think it's going, one of us will have to do a Piquet".

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The way F1 works, of course the positions would be swapped. Imagine what would happen if such a pre-arrangement resulted in a swimmer dropping from Olympic gold to silver at the behest of his squad coach in order to allow a colleague to take the higher accolade ? This highlights the difference between a sport [swimming] and a business [F1].

I've always thought of F1 teams as businesses.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by garcon

It highlights the difference between two different sports.

This I agree with. F1 is more complex and one of its attractions. Direct comparison to other sports is not that relevant. Their strength is often simplicity, F1's is complexity. Love the differences not the similarities. Hey, but that is a major problem of the world!

I don't agree with all team orders. However I support all teams right to use them. Different teams, different implementation, different words. Love the differences not the similarities.

Another point is that F1, and indeed motorsport generally, has always been like this. Love these differences.

As for F1 being a business! If only it was more like the past when it was, er, just a business.