The Indian Grand Prix

[Beetle]

Please, allow me to begin with admitting that this entire post will sound insane, crazy, and unrealistic (but hey, so does Multi 21! ). I just wanted to point that out...

Does anyone else here think the Indian Grand Prix could be in jeopardy? New Delhi has been on the news for months now because of all the gang-rape violence going on over there. It is getting outrageous, and some politicians have regarded it as "terrorism". I'm not a politician, but I tend to agree. There's a reason Bernie is hesitant about going back to Mexico City, but in the current climate, New Delhi is FAR more dangerous. I know they have a 10 year contract, but this is getting ridiculous. They cancelled Bahrain for protests in 2011 - gang-rape violence seems far worse to me, and the fact that it is in the top 20 most polluted (air) cities in the world, that just seems to add to the fact that until they get their act together, New Delhi needs to go. Anyone care to comment?

[Born Racer]

It will be brushed under the carpet, like many injustices in the world and the show will go on. If Bahrain went ahead with its military media-pushing fear factor category, then India sure as hell will.

[Peter Mallett]

Oh for gawd's sake. Bahrain, New Delhi, worse things happen in New York or London (I was in Holborn 7 July 2005). Get a life people.

Most of the stories are based on news reports not reality. The rape in New Delhi was horrendous and if proven guilty then the perpetrators deserve all that comes to them. For my part I'm just about to book my tickets for Bahrain and I'd go to India too if it was convenient.

[Born Racer]

That's what I'm saying: that Bahrain was pushed too much into the spotlight vis-a-vis other human rights injustices.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Oh for gawd's sake. Bahrain, New Delhi, worse things happen in New York or London (I was in Holborn 7 July 2005). Get a life people.

Most of the stories are based on news reports not reality. The rape in New Delhi was horrendous and if proven guilty then the perpetrators deserve all that comes to them. For my part I'm just about to book my tickets for Bahrain and I'd go to India too if it was convenient.

Excuse me, but it hasn't just been ONE rape. The numbers are simply off the charts in New Delhi. And, it HAS been all over the news. That's the point... doesn't that mean that F1 will "pull a Bahrain" and quit the race for a year? Personally, I think New Delhi is an awful city with problems all over the place and I couldn't get paid to go over there.

And yes, worse things happen in New York and London, but probably only a 50th as commonplace as what happens in New Delhi.

[bella]

no, i don't think it's in trouble.

as a woman, not a man who thinks he understands the risks of being a woman, i feel i need to point out that threats to your safety and wellbeing come from people you know as much as people you don't. the big random incidents will happen regardless. it could be someone you know who you get drunk with and who gets the wrong idea and won't accept that you don't want to spend the night with him as much as it can be a random attack from one stranger or a group of men when you're leaving a bar or restaurant.

and trust me, there are plenty of "nice guys" who think "no" mean "assault me and i'll say yes eventually".

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Oh for gawd's sake. Bahrain, New Delhi, worse things happen in New York or London (I was in Holborn 7 July 2005). Get a life people.

Oh, THAT is rich! I love that logic.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Most of the stories are based on news reports not reality. The rape in New Delhi was horrendous and if proven guilty then the perpetrators deserve all that comes to them. For my part I'm just about to book my tickets for Bahrain and I'd go to India too if it was convenient.

I am confused. Is it real ("rape in New Delhi was horrendous") or fake ("news reports not reality").

Richard

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Human Rights? The U.K./EU bloc and U.S. don't exactly have a clean sheet and it's not as bad as when we raced in Apartheid-era South Africa. Not to mention Stalinist Hungary and others.

My only thing about the Indian Grand Prix is it's a terrible advertisement for Indian Tourism.

When you turn on Singapore you see an amazing metropolis at it's finest in night, Abu Dhabi you see a man-made wonder and a 'fantasy island' of sorts, Austin you see a lively sporting event with pageantry and flyovers, Malaysia you see beautiful scenery and jungle like conditions just miles from a major airport, Bahrain with it's amazing architecture, and ect.

Turn on India and you see some already deteriorating racetrack with half empty grandstands and massive traffic jams coming into the circuit. All of this engulfed in some sort of weird smog that makes the Los Angeles Valley look like the Caribbean. It got really bad last year when one of the SPEED commentators mentioned that the teams were complaining about the 'stench of rotting animal corpses.' If I were the Department of Sport and/or Tourism I wouldn't exactly be flattered by this event...

[bella]

but isn't it strange how all the teams really love the indian gp because it is totally mad?

anybody who has worked with companies in india and tried to do any work in the country knows it's pretty much how china used to be about 15-20 years ago. it's shambolic, the answer to any problem is to throw more labour at it, they don't understand the meaning of "clean room", you're pretty much constantly lied to by the indian companies who play serious hardball on prices so you barely break even on the project.

but to be fair, they pay the bills with real money, stuff is built... eventually and the people away from work situations are absolute diamonds. it's a simple culture clash. us in the west are in absolutely no position to criticise or get righteous over the way they do things. if our way is better, they'll copy it soon enough.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Human Rights? The U.K./EU bloc and U.S. don't exactly have a clean sheet and it's not as bad as when we raced in Apartheid-era South Africa. Not to mention Stalinist Hungary and others.

My only thing about the Indian Grand Prix is it's a terrible advertisement for Indian Tourism.

When you turn on Singapore you see an amazing metropolis at it's finest in night, Abu Dhabi you see a man-made wonder and a 'fantasy island' of sorts, Austin you see a lively sporting event with pageantry and flyovers, Malaysia you see beautiful scenery and jungle like conditions just miles from a major airport, Bahrain with it's amazing architecture, and ect.

Turn on India and you see some already deteriorating racetrack with half empty grandstands and massive traffic jams coming into the circuit. All of this engulfed in some sort of weird smog that makes the Los Angeles Valley look like the Caribbean. It got really bad last year when one of the SPEED commentators mentioned that the teams were complaining about the 'stench of rotting animal corpses.' If I were the Department of Sport and/or Tourism I wouldn't exactly be flattered by this event...

This is my point exactly. Buddh International Circuit was not built up to par with the rest of the "Tilkedromes" except Yeongam, which has a similar "feel" to New Delhi... old, deteriorating, and a grimy industrial port directly behind the track.

The only thing I'd disagree with you on is the first part of your statement. Yes, F1 raced in Apartheid South Africa and Stalinist Eastern Europe, but was that a good thing? No. Would we like to ratify it and not let that mistake happen again by letting corrupt countries in on the F1 game? Yes... well, at least anyone with a sane mind wouldn't want to let a country with problems like pollution, crime, unemployment, environment, etc. race in a "rich man's sport". China (including Macao, Hong Kong, and Taiwan) is a bit different, because even though they have terrible pollution and environmental problems, and population isn't exactly rich, you are probably more likely to get mugged 100 times in a row in India than having your pocket picked in Shanghai, China, which is widely regarded as one of the safest metropolises in the world in regards to those matters. They have a HUGE manufacturing industry and several booming financial centers (like Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taipei, etc.). So it's understandable that F1 would go to Shanghai, with it's glimmering skyline and massive 5 star hotels at every turn. But New Delhi is really quite an unappetizing place, aesthetically, in my opinion. But that's just me... obviously some people like the grime.

[bella]

i'm not totally sure why you started this thread. you're not going to have your views changed, or even expanded, are you?

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Now HERE is a well organized event in one of those nice wonderful developed countries:

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227...ng-2012-repeat

[Marbot]

I agree. The Bahrain and Indian GPs should be cancelled at once. At least the next race should be.............oh, crap!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bella

i'm not totally sure why you started this thread. you're not going to have your views changed, or even expanded, are you?

That is why he started the thread..

I read your posts.........

You are special...

[Teretonga]

I have lived in India for the last 5 months.
India has a history of violence against women at a local and family level that has gone on for years.
It is still going on but you will never hear about it.
Its is no different from many other societies.
The particular issue has media support but it is not because India is a violent country.
Many other nations, especially western societies, are far more violent/dangerous than India to move about in.

[Peter Mallett]

My point exactly. Unless we go to these places and learn about their culture, all we know is what the media and interested parties tell us. Trying to apply "Western" attitudes to oriental or eastern cultures is frankly useless.

[werner]

The big difference between the case of India, and the cases of Bahrein, China, South-Africa and Hungary is that in the latter cases you are contributing to a regime that is evil to a certain degree. They wanted to host an F1-race to show the world their power. In such cases I think it is very appropriate to consider not staging an event like an F1 race. However in India, the organisers of the race (I'm not sure how much the government is involved, though I presume that they are substantially) are not really the bad guys. It would be wrong to punisch them, and the general public for the crimes that certain individuals commit.

Having said that, offcourse F1 needs to consider other things like safety of the teams, and the effect the smoggy, unpleasant surroundings have on the image of F1. I don't think they are bad enough to cancel the race, though when the contract ends, things should have been changed a lot to renew it imo.

[bella]

the problem is that the issues that beetle is talking about are straying into where we have to start categorising abuse against women.

physical abuse is terrible but what about emotional abuse? both forcibly deny a woman control over her own life and decisions, both ruin a womans life. is that worth refusing to visit a country? if it is we'd better not have f1 in the united kingdom and united states then. the words our media use are so hurtful to a womans self esteem and respect.

take the daily mail, a british publication serving both markets. women are pictured 'showing off their legs' (wearing shorts on a warm day), 'upstaging' one another on the red carpet (wearing a nice dress), 'letting themselves go' (getting coffee in their house clothes), 'looking tired' (not wearing make up), etc. this is all powerful, judgmental stuff, suggesting to girls and women that we're making this kind of judgement about each other all the time. they criticise women for being themselves and wearing what they want instead of the uniform of the day. this is creating a paranoid generation of young women, who have valuable skills and important contributions to make to society but are too paranoid about walking out of the door without a full mask of make up on, or wearing exactly the right clothes and carrying the right bag. and what about the music culture? women are either fawning all over male performers, or having to develop a clown like image with plastic surgery and makeup and pole dancer outfits to stand out and turn themselves into objects to be lusted over. meanwhile, white, overweight guys can carry on being recognised for their music without being judged by their image.

so we're oppressing and damaging the women we value as members of society with judgement and wanting them to cover themselves with so much makeup and tacky clothing that we can't see who they are any more. they all just look the same. kind of like the much criticised burkhas, then.

why don't we go to india and set an example of how women should be treated then? we already have women in all areas of team management, journalism and engineering, let's get rid of them as promotional tools on the grid or dress them appropriately alongside men too.

don't get me wrong, i'm no bra burning feminist and i'm under no illusions about my own gender and what have you, but come on. the western world has such a huge blind spot to its own mistreatment of many groups in society. don't use it as a stick to beat india with. which country recently had a court case involving a gang rape of a drunk women at a college? or which country had a gang attack on a young girl on a bus? that would be the united states and the united kingdom. it happens here too, guys.

men don't need to stand up for us. men simply need to STOP DOING IT. all of it. before we get even deeper into the mire of doing it to ourselves.

/rant

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by bella

the problem is that the issues that beetle is talking about are straying into where we have to start categorising abuse against women.

physical abuse is terrible but what about emotional abuse? both forcibly deny a woman control over her own life and decisions, both ruin a womans life. is that worth refusing to visit a country? if it is we'd better not have f1 in the united kingdom and united states then. the words our media use are so hurtful to a womans self esteem and respect.

take the daily mail, a british publication serving both markets. women are pictured 'showing off their legs' (wearing shorts on a warm day), 'upstaging' one another on the red carpet (wearing a nice dress), 'letting themselves go' (getting coffee in their house clothes), 'looking tired' (not wearing make up), etc. this is all powerful, judgmental stuff, suggesting to girls and women that we're making this kind of judgement about each other all the time. they criticise women for being themselves and wearing what they want instead of the uniform of the day. this is creating a paranoid generation of young women, who have valuable skills and important contributions to make to society but are too paranoid about walking out of the door without a full mask of make up on, or wearing exactly the right clothes and carrying the right bag. and what about the music culture? women are either fawning all over male performers, or having to develop a clown like image with plastic surgery and makeup and pole dancer outfits to stand out and turn themselves into objects to be lusted over. meanwhile, white, overweight guys can carry on being recognised for their music without being judged by their image.

so we're oppressing and damaging the women we value as members of society with judgement and wanting them to cover themselves with so much makeup and tacky clothing that we can't see who they are any more. they all just look the same. kind of like the much criticised burkhas, then.

why don't we go to india and set an example of how women should be treated then? we already have women in all areas of team management, journalism and engineering, let's get rid of them as promotional tools on the grid or dress them appropriately alongside men too.

don't get me wrong, i'm no bra burning feminist and i'm under no illusions about my own gender and what have you, but come on. the western world has such a huge blind spot to its own mistreatment of many groups in society. don't use it as a stick to beat india with. which country recently had a court case involving a gang rape of a drunk women at a college? or which country had a gang attack on a young girl on a bus? that would be the united states and the united kingdom. it happens here too, guys.

men don't need to stand up for us. men simply need to STOP DOING IT. all of it. before we get even deeper into the mire of doing it to ourselves.

/rant

Possibly a little more wordy but:

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Oh for gawd's sake. Bahrain, New Delhi, worse things happen in New York or London (I was in Holborn 7 July 2005). Get a life people.

[bella]

lol exactly, though the op evidently needs it spelled out to him. we're all only aware of issues that directly affect us, that's human nature for you.

the op started this with good intentions and it came from a position of concern but... well. like the bahrain discussion a while ago, let's all get our own houses in order before we go trying to make examples of others.

[Peter Mallett]

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by bella

no, i don't think it's in trouble.

as a woman, not a man who thinks he understands the risks of being a woman, i feel i need to point out that threats to your safety and wellbeing come from people you know as much as people you don't. the big random incidents will happen regardless. it could be someone you know who you get drunk with and who gets the wrong idea and won't accept that you don't want to spend the night with him as much as it can be a random attack from one stranger or a group of men when you're leaving a bar or restaurant.

and trust me, there are plenty of "nice guys" who think "no" mean "assault me and i'll say yes eventually".

[Paradise City]

There are two ways the Indian GP might get torpedoed. 1. A natural disaster within the region 2. A government so hostile to the GP that they will obstruct things at customs and in other ways. I don't foresee either happening but if the GP gets sunk, it'll be for those reasons.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by bella

lol exactly, though the op evidently needs it spelled out to him. we're all only aware of issues that directly affect us, that's human nature for you.

the op started this with good intentions and it came from a position of concern but... well. like the bahrain discussion a while ago, let's all get our own houses in order before we go trying to make examples of others.

You don't seem to understand my point. The reason the Indian Grand Prix should be given second thoughts during this time is BECAUSE of the news reports that are alerting the public of serious problems within New Delhi and India in general. To quote Mr. Mallett, "most of the stories are based on news reports not reality." I disagree, but whatever. For those who listen to the news a lot, it gives them a bad opinion of F1 for going to a place where this stuff seems to happen a lot. Whether the news reports are blown out of proportion or not, it makes no difference. If all of this stuff is floating around the news, people are going to here about it, and it's going to give F1 a bad reputation for going and supporting places who have a society which, in most Western peoples minds, is slightly perverse in the way they treat women. I'm not saying that Western society doesn't do this, as you mentioned, bella, I totally agree. What I'm saying is that for Western viewers, who really don't think long and hard about what their own culture is doing to the self-esteem of their women, will be discouraged by seeing F1 going to a place that they hear is bad. They won't want to support it. And we all want to save F1, correct?

It's going to make people paranoid about going to these places. I know, Sao Paulo is far more dangerous. However, you hear about various gang-rape victims every day in New Delhi, and since it is fresh on people's minds, they won't want to support F1, who is consequently supporting the city of New Delhi and the country of India by bringing the F1 circus there.

Apart from all this, I think the filth alone should be enough to bring the Indian GP down. I mean, look at these pictures...











And this... http://aqicn.org/city/delhi/igiairport/
New Delhi recently topped out at 634 PM 2.5 AQI near the airport over the last two days. Beijing only hit 187 (only 187 ). Los Angeles, Houston, or Phoenix will only peak at 150 on a really bad day. The worst I've seen Paris or London hit is around 120. That gives you an idea of just how bad it is.

Recently, Beijing has been in the news for their problems. They are willing to spend $16,000,000,000 US dollars on tackling their pollution problem. New Delhi has been steadily worse than Beijing all along, yet they are getting very little news reports. Why? The government doesn't seem to care, and neither do the people. You'll hear me rant a lot about pollution, and this isn't the last time, so if you don't like it or don't believe in climate change, back off. Anyways...

How that horrendous smog last year didn't tremendously affect the drivers' stamina last year is, quite frankly, beyond my comprehension.

[werner]

That is indeed an important poit. Does the air in New Delhi pose a threat to the drivers health? In Beijing they shut down heavy industrie for months to bring down pollution for the Olimpics. Offcourse the Olimpics are a much larger event vs 1 GP, but still...