Ferrari consider appealling Vettel's Championship

[beau1]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638

Ferrari want to establish whether there is enough evidence to lodge a protest that, if successful, could overturn the result of the world championship.

Ferrari are "evaluating footage" that appears to show Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel making an illegal overtaking move in Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix.

Fernando Alonso lost the title by three points to Vettel after finishing second for Ferrari and the German seventh.

Governing body the FIA refused to confirm whether it was investigating.

Red Bull could not be reached.

The footage, from Vettel's on-board camera, appears to show the German passing Toro Rosso's Jean-Eric Vergne in a yellow 'caution' zone.

If that is the case, and any protest was upheld, it could mean Vettel would have 20 seconds added to his total race time. That would demote him to eighth place and make Alonso world champion by one point.

Could this go any further?

I can see that it could. Oh dear. Are we going to have another controversial championship win?

[ECW Dan Selby]

I'm sure I read on F1 Fanatic that this was completely quashed as a few of the members spotted a green flag (or a green on his dashboard indicating it wasn't a yellow flag section, or something).

Can't see this really happening, based on that.

Selby

[Icebaby]

Why not if there is a case to answer.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I understand why they do it, but really... It'd be pretty crappy. What an anti-climax that'd be. Weeey, I am the 2012 champ afterall!

Selby

[beau1]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I'm sure I read on F1 Fanatic that this was completely quashed as a few of the members spotted a green flag (or a green on his dashboard indicating it wasn't a yellow flag section, or something).



Selby

Not sure about that. I'm assuming the lights on his dash-board are the two lights on each side of his rev and gear-change figures. Both of those two lights are still on when he completes the move but goes off as soon as he passes the green light.

[Jaguarman1]

According to BBC, Ferrari don't even need to appeal it. The FIA are apparently obliged to do it themselves.

I thought this was about the pass on Charles Pic which Pat Fry at Ferrari said was an oil flag. In fact this was completely different and if found guilty could result in a 20 second penalty, effectively demoting Vettel to eight place which could give Alonso the title...by one point.

As an Alonso and Ferrari fan, I certainly don't want to see it won this way. But at the same time, Vettel sails incredibly close to the wind on his trangressions at times, especially this season.

Lets hope it's found not to need investigation on this occasion.

[wnut]

I understood that you could not appeal stewards decisions?

Schumacher's overtake of Alonso as the track went to green and subsequent peanalty gave us that.

Or am I confused, again?

[grumpyf14d]

Pretty conclusive evidence in this video that Vettel in deed did pass under yellow flag conditions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuMZzI8pOz4

What the FIA does is anybody's guess; remember what happened to Senna in Japan when he went through the runoff area only to be penalized for doing the right thing? I'm sure Bernie will make it go away.

As I understand it no decision about the pass has been made by the FIA to date so an appeal or realization that there was an infraction can be reviewed by the FIA.

[Jaguarman1]

If it's proved that there was a marshal waving a green flag then the case is flawed and the title remains with Vettel.
If however the FIA decide (and they need to do this by Friday) that they have sufficient evidence to impose a penalty then rules state a 20 second time penalty. That will be what does for SV if found guilty.
Looking at the footage, I agree it's anyone's guess what the FIA wil do.

[Greem]

Light panels supplement flag signals. The green flag preceded the light panel - either driver's right exit T4 or driver's left along the straight, either way preceding the light panel.

The light *would not be on* if the up track flag was not green.

[wolfhound]

If one reads the article mentioned above there is a marshals post on the left after the third corner that is not visible from the on board camera. This post was displaying a green flag on the previous lap according to Andrew Benson.

[Knowlesy]

Given it was a Toro Rosso he was passing it probably slammed on the brakes to wave Vettel past and there was nothing the young German could do but overtake the stricken Red Bull feeder.

[p-matt]

Seems clear from the video that he did overtake under yellows so it will be interesting to see what happens

I don't agree that it's not right to look at this seriously now. If its deemed he did overtake under yellows he needs to get the appropriate penalty.

However had this pass been spotted at the time and was penalised during the race Vettel would probably still have won the championship. Even if he was in 8th, Webber and Vergne would have moved over to give him his 6th place back

[wnut]

Originally Posted by grumpyf14d

Pretty conclusive evidence in this video that Vettel in deed did pass under yellow flag conditions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuMZzI8pOz4

What the FIA does is anybody's guess; remember what happened to Senna in Japan when he went through the runoff area only to be penalized for doing the right thing? I'm sure Bernie will make it go away.

As I understand it no decision about the pass has been made by the FIA to date so an appeal or realization that there was an infraction can be reviewed by the FIA.

Thanks Grumpyf14d great video.

The earlier question remains as to the review of stewards decisions post race. No decision to review is noted!
A stewards penalty has to be applied within 7 laps?
I think Knowlesy is right that the other car slammed on its brakes and the only way to avoid contact would be to overtake!

At what point do you stop picking through every race of the season. Did Alonso cut a line in Australia?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by p-matt

Seems clear from the video that he did overtake under yellows so it will be interesting to see what happens

The point to bear in mind is that it is the flags that are the key indicator as to whether a transgression has been made - the lights are there for information purposes. From the on board footage from Vettel's car, I don't think it is possible to see a green flag at any post; however, there must be one and should that flag be in advance of the overtake, then the pass is OK notwithstanding the lights displayed. A further point on this subject is that the lights and flag points are not always in the same place and certainly in the case of Silverstone, a light display may be covering more than one flag point. As such there may be some distance between a green flag and a light.

[grumpyf14d]

If a Marshall is waving a green flag and the panel is saying yellow flag who's right? If race control sets the panel lights do they know more or less about the track conditions?

I'd imagine that a yellow flag would take presidence, whether or not the panel or corner worker was showing green flag conditions. If race control felt the track needed to stay yellow or a corner worker could see something that race control could not I would have to believe that a yellow flag would always take presidence.

[TrapezeArtist]

Pretty damning evidence. He certainly did pass under yellows according to the trackside and on-dash lights (which are the bits we can see in the video).

Potential excuses?

The Toro Rosso slowed so abruptly that the only safe thing to do was pass him. This will require a look at the TR telemetry. Somehow, I doubt it.

There was a green flag being shown which was not in agreement with the lights. This would be a bit of a cack-up on the marshalling front, but not inconceivable. Can it be shown to be the case, or not?

Whichever way this finally goes, it is going to be a mess.

[GolddustMini]

just found this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVC83hKvjYE

which shows that prior to the overtake, there is a green flag being waved from a raised marshals post, as the lights are there to suplemement the flags and there are many more flags than light boards, then the track goes green prior to the overtake and prior to the lightboard (and the cockpit lights) changing back to green.

[TrueBlueFlyer]

Speculation from a flagger


Light boards don't always line up with stations, which means the person pushing the "yellow" button could be standing quite a distance away from the actual light panel.


A yellow light or flag is followed by a green flag. So if there is a green flag waiving up stream from the incident that's required by rules. In fact, as a light board operator pushes the yellow button, the next station after it automatically goes flashing green, unless the light board operator there overrides it with a yellow light (assuming its necessary).


Race control has the capability to override the marshals on stations. In Austin there was a yellow light activated from Race Control that was told to the marshal holding the light panel box, over comms. They can turn it on, they can turn it off based on what they see on camera. Typically they only control SC light and Red flag / light.



As a flagger, we are told to watch and report passes under yellow condition. With FIA you can actually be summoned to France to give evidence/testimony that you observed a pass under yellow. This privilege apparently happens very infrequently.



We are also told that once yellow flags or lights are activated, there is some time for the drivers to obey the condition. For example, it is not expected for a driver that is fighting for position to do anything unsafe when a yellow flag comes out - like slamming on brakes. When the driver is showing legitimate pace in overtaking, and overtaking has started, that overtaking may finish under the yellow flag.


Will be interesting to see how this all plays out

[Marbot]

Yet another opportunity for F1 to, once again, shoot itself in the foot?

I have to hope that this has all been blown up out of all proportion by the 'Twitterati', and someone will eventually calm the situation. We can only hope.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

just found this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVC83hKvjYE

which shows that prior to the overtake, there is a green flag being waved from a raised marshals post, as the lights are there to suplemement the flags and there are many more flags than light boards, then the track goes green prior to the overtake and prior to the lightboard (and the cockpit lights) changing back to green.

Thanks GdM - totally agree with you - waved green prior to the overtake clear on that video.

Personally, I think that Ferrari would hurt their general image if they agitated about this (even if it was true). It's generally held that this year Alonso has been a star hauling around a relatively agricultural machine - add Domenicalli's quoted remarks saying Alonso should have won and then a protest on this and it'll make Ferrari look like sore losers with an ordinary car and churlish attitude to the wider world.

I'm not even sure that they CAN protest this long after the race - used to be time limits on both protests and appeals but not sure if they're still in place.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I'm not even sure that they CAN protest this long after the race - used to be time limits on both protests and appeals but not sure if they're still in place.

The actual season isn't over until they hand Vettel the trophy, and you can appeal now about something that happened at the race in Australia, AFAIK.

[Marbot]

Pitpass also have a hold of this story, so it must be something approaching newsworthiness.

http://www.pitpass.com/48104-Ferrari...Vettel-protest

Ferrari and/or the FIA have until Friday to make an official protest.

Fingers crossed that they don't.

[Armco Bender]

Someone could end up swimming with the fishes.

[TrueBlueFlyer]

F1 season aint' over until the lawyers get their cut