Will The IRL Now Gain Some Momentum?

[JohnSSC]

Wise words, Tim. Basically all we are doing is speculating as if we know anything about the real situation!

Fun though, isn't it?

I am curious to see Texas this week as well - hopefully the momentum will continue to gather...

[macdaddy]

Carl Haas:

"For a while there I thought it was going to happen. I think for a little while we all thought it could happen. But of course it's come apart again, just like always. And now, I agree with you, it's never going to happen. It's gotta be all on Tony's terms. That's the only way he wants it. That's the way it's always been."

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by indycool

It's not "appeasement" to Honda and Penske, it's "appeasement" to the OWRS we're talking about. "Appeasement" to the organization that PREVENTED one series from evolving in bankruptcy court.

Yes they prevented the one series then, for the same reason the problems there are now, they dont want TG to run the whole show. Just as TG doesn't want KK to run the show his was (including OS events).


As has been stated their have been differences in each others "vision", domestic versus OS. I know theres pride and ego involved, but how hard is it for KK to say "alright we'll give up the whole pacific rim idea", then for TG to say "alright we'll give you eg 2 in Canada, 1 in Mexico and 1 at the Gold Coast, the rest in America" Nice work guys.

Originally Posted by indycool

"Appeasement" to the organization which has a "Gang of Four" writers on its payroll that calls the IRL leader the "idiot grandson" or "Mad King George" (listen to the current roundtable on the CCWS website).

I quite enjoy the Video roundtable. Yes I did hear the Idiot Grandson call, but as RM said he knows he calls him that and doesn't really care, I'm sure TG has some names for RM aswell. I think its meant in good humour.

Originally Posted by indycool

their demands are going to be more preposterous.

I fail to se how their demands are preposterous. They are asking for 50/50 down the middle, TG is asking for the whole show.

[indycool]

1. Do they command 50 percent of the assets of Indycar racing? No.
2. We don't know if they're asking for a 50-50 split or not. Since they don't go anywhere and these meetings end abruptly with KK leaking details of his own making to Robin Miller for just another shot ranks as preposterous to make TG look bad. TG shuts up about these meetings.
3. TG has spent 10 years being attacked by the CW jihad, by every CART chieftain and now by the Amigos. For most of this period, he has just shut up and moved on. Whether they want TG to run the whole show or not is immaterial. TG has the Indianapolis 500. CART proved it couldn't exist without it.
4. No, RM's remarks and Kirby's remarks are NOT met with good humor. The viciousness of these guys, sanctioned on the CCWS website, is well documented. How would you like to be called the "idiot grandson?" Would you take it in good humor?
5. The OWRS guys have proven they don't want TG to run it. Before the bankruptcy hearing, it was a matter of semantics. Now it's a matter of money. CCWS guys want to get paid for their efforts and millions at keeping two series apart. TG ain't gonna pay it. That simple.

[mountainstar]

"Will the IRL Now Gain Some Momentum". Hmmm.... An interesting thread to debate whether the IRL will grow after the nice bump they received from Danicamania. But it's now degenerated into paranoia and hysteria from IRL fans about Champcar and it's business model. Boy, am I confused. You would think from the IRL being the greatest open wheel championship in the world that the last thing on IRL fans mind would be Champcar, that lousy, degenerate, infomercial, no name drivers, championship.

Let's be factual here folks and realize that countless attempts at reunification have all floundered simply because TG wants total control. Period. End of Story.

I don't know Mr. George, but I know someone who does, and they tell me he can be a nice fellow but is definitely not the brightest bulb to light up the room. If he had not been gifted the family fortune he would be working a low end job somewhere. One only has to look at all of his business endeavours from the past 15 years and the lesson to be learned is how not to run a business.

[JohnSSC]

Well mountainstar, you've kinda poked a stick in the collective eye here with your comments above.

In re: TG, maybe he is not the brightest bulb, but at least he has not ripped a sponsor (Players) a new food evacuation orifice on national TV al la Gerry Forsythe. He has not welshed on his handshake deals al la PG and GF. His series has cars with pretty stickers emblazoned on them from, what do you call 'em? Oh yeah, sponsors! Look at the Portland lineup posted in the CC forum. How many of those cars pictured are essentially devoid of advertising?

The 500 is on the upswing. The Brickyard NASCAR race was sheer brilliance and is a huge money maker - the F1 race I would agree has been a mixed blessing. He has a set schedule without TBA still written in days before his season starts, venues are not evaporating or simply not happening, drivers are actually paid by the teams to drive for them in many cases, the teams that participate in the Series (with the exception of Vision) are actual teams not owned/controlled by him and have driver lineups that are firm months in advance of the season starting as opposed to the DCR method. That by the way is where you show up at the LBGP knowing first practice is at noon and announce your driver lineup at 11:30 a.m. that day.

If the IRL is a lesson on how not to run a business (ie generating cash flow, consumer interest, sponsor interest, etc.) then by your own examples may I ask what exactly is the sort of example OWRS is setting?

I keep reading posts about how badly the IRL is faring but as Clara Peller once said: "Where's the beef?" in regards to supporting that supposition.

[jock25]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

drivers are actually paid by the teams to drive for them in many cases, the teams that participate in the Series (with the exception of Vision) are actual teams not owned/controlled by him and have driver lineups that are firm months in advance of the season starting as opposed to the DCR method. That by the way is where you show up at the LBGP knowing first practice is at noon and announce your driver lineup at 11:30 a.m. that day.

Surely this kind of comparision is risky given the relationship between many IRL teams and Honda/Toyota? Many of the top IRL teams (AGR the best example) are subsidised by Honda/Toyota and their driver salaries are paid by Honda/Toyota.
While the teams within the IRL are not owned by the IRL (a definite positive) it cannot be implied that they are infinitely more stable, commercially, or legitimate when they remain so heavily reliant upon manufacturer income.

Panther Racing were quite vocal earlier in the season about their own disgust with the manner in which leading IRL teams were able to sell title sponsorship for $2-3m whereas Panther were looking for revenue in the region of $10m to offset their lack of funding from their engine partner.

It is a moot point whether a racing series that owns many of its competing teams is better/more effective/more commercially viable than one where many of the leading teams are dependent upon income from engine manufacturers - and manufacturers with no long-term financial stake in the championship to guarantee their involvement beyond the end of the current marketing plan.

[Hazza]

But if you look at the pre-Toyota-Honda days there were still far more sponsers than Champcar have now.

But look at AGR when they jumped from Kool - 7 Eleven, they managed to pull, and keep with far more sponsers than Champcar have had over the last few years.
Indeck? Wha? Jim Beam? Hell yeah - brand recognition baby!

[jock25]

Originally Posted by Hazza

But look at AGR when they jumped from Kool - 7 Eleven, they managed to pull, and keep with far more sponsers than Champcar have had over the last few years.
Indeck? Wha? Jim Beam? Hell yeah - brand recognition baby!

But mostly because their Honda subsidy allows them to offer title sponsorship below market rates relative to other IRL teams!

Originally Posted by jock25

Panther Racing were quite vocal earlier in the season about their own disgust with the manner in which leading IRL teams were able to sell title sponsorship for $2-3m whereas Panther were looking for revenue in the region of $10m to offset their lack of funding from their engine partner.

[indycool]

Well, jock, just what do you know about AGR's deals with teams, or Honda's and Toyota's, for that matter. I know the manufacturers have bonus programs for wins, but from what I actually KNOW, that's about it and I don't know how much those bonuses are.

I have read that AGR has 29 sponsors total, sidepod and associate, wings, stickers, etc. What their rates are, I don't know. And I submit you don't know either.

[rustyfan]

And said $2-3m figures have been confirmed by sources within the leading teams in question?

[jock25]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

And said $2-3m figures have been confirmed by sources within the leading teams in question?

Originally Posted by indycool

I have read that AGR has 29 sponsors total, sidepod and associate, wings, stickers, etc. What their rates are, I don't know. And I submit you don't know either.

I believe this one quote should ease your concerns gentlemen...

Originally Posted by John Barnes, CEO Panther Racing, March 2005

"You have one team [Andretti-Green Racing] whose total sponsorship package outside the engine manufacturer doesn't amount to one good sponsorship for other teams. They're being totally subsidised by an engine manufacturer. That makes it hard for teams like Foyt and Dreyer & Reinbold to sell $5million or $6million sponsorships when these other guys are selling primary sponsorship packages for a million or a million and a half."

It therefore remains that it is presumptious and inaccurate to assert that IRL teams are more legitimate and more stable commercially simply because they are not owned by the IRL, relative to CC. It is the case that the involvement of Honda and Toyota has brought a massive injection of revenue but focused amongst certain teams, skewing the market value of sponsorship packages in the IRL.

In the case of the IRL the concern is not over ownership of the teams but where the majority of their racing budget is derived from.

I believe this quote featured in a hard copy article from Autosport magazine, around about 31st March 2005.

[indycool]

I'm sure John Barnes knows every detail of the books at AGR and the rest of the teams. They just all rush to trade that information around to each other willy-nilly to make sure everyone knows their proprietary business. If you want to talk about "presumptious," talk about him.

[jock25]

Originally Posted by indycool

I'm sure John Barnes knows every detail of the books at AGR and the rest of the teams. They just all rush to trade that information around to each other willy-nilly to make sure everyone knows their proprietary business. If you want to talk about "presumptious," talk about him.

well surely he knows a lot more than we do, would you not agree? As an aside, would AGR not be slapping a libel writ on him if he was talking complete rubbish? After all this is not the kind of stuff a commercial enterprise wishes to find publicised willy-nilly...

At any rate we are clearly at an impasse until Michael Andretti comes out to chat to us and set the record straight either way.

I would be interested to know Team Owner's thoughts on this one, as that is perhaps as close to the "truth" as we are going to get on this issue...

[indycool]

We're not going to get to the truth on this issue, any more than we're going to get ANY proprietary information about what drivers get paid, how much money IMS makes on the Indianapolis 500, etc. John Barnes knows a lot more than we do about his OWN team. If he lost a sponsor negotiation with some potential sponsor to AGR somewhere along the way, there may have been more to it than money. Maybe an XM Radio, for example, wanted Bryan Herta, an American, rather than Tomas Enge. And no, that would not even qualify on a preliminary basis for a libel suit. Ask any lawyer. AGR isn't damaged by it. Quoting Barnes' conjectural speculation about deals doesn't give your own conjectural speculation any more merit.

[mac]

Originally Posted by indycool

I'm sure John Barnes knows every detail of the books at AGR and the rest of the teams.

Well you seem to know all of the details of Champ Car's books - I am quite prepared to accept his opinion as particularly close to the truth.

Originally Posted by indycool

They just all rush to trade that information around to each other willy-nilly to make sure everyone knows their proprietary business. If you want to talk about "presumptious," talk about him.

He would have a very good idea. In racing, everyone knows everyone else - it's the way it works. From the mechanics that speak to other mechanics, all the way through teams up to team owners and sponsors.

You think the sponsors in the corporate areas sit on their lonesome and don't speak to anyone? No, they're out there doing business and networking, speaking to sponsors on other teams, as well as their own about all sorts of things - it is only natural that they speak to each other about what sort of deal they get out of their sponsorship dollar.

Sponsors would talk to Panther about what is being offered elsewhere and why they think they would be losing out if they went to that team.

In other words, Barnes would have a VERY GOOD understanding of what goes on. He may not know the finite details of how AGR balances its books, but he would have a strong knowledge of what other teams are offering.

And let's not kid ourselves - we can romance the 500 as much as we like, but the fact is that teams like AGR, Ganassi, Penske, Mo Nunn et al all went to the IRL because of the manufacturer support they would get if they went.

Heck, Mo Nunn even left when the manufacturer support to his team dried up.

[sgw2]

Mac, Jock25, DRT

I remember CART having the same sort of sour grape owners complaining that team such and such took a sponsor from them. Of course that was back in the days when Champcars had sponsors.

The reality, which you three are trying hard to deny, even to yourselves, is that CCWS is a failing business, especially in the United States. You are begging for a merger that the other potential partner doesn't want and isn't interested in.

You guys need to think about CCWS, and in the CCWS forum discuss what direction it should go, and compare where it is going. To be honest I think Kalkhoven is going to continue to execute his plans to add races in Asia wher they pay and drop US races. Get used to it.

[indycool]

Mac, I respectfully disagree. What I know of Champ Car's books is from CART's previously public books. What I know of Champ Car's books is the PUBLIC knowledge that it has gone back to the PUBLIC city councils of Edmonton, San Jose and Portland for money. What I know of Long Beach's books is that NSSN reported Long Beach lost $1.4 million and Dover announced that Kalkhoven bought it for $15 million and we'll confirm the former with Dover's next quarterly call.

As to your assertion that Barnes or any other car owner knows the business of all the others, I totally disagree. The rumors spread like wildfire. The truth seldom does.

[Tim Northcutt]

Since CART was a Publicly-Traded Company, mac, it was out there for the world to see...

and since the business model hasn't seemed to change a whole lot from what CART did...spend lots of money to self-promote or buy events, continue to go on overseas jaunts and seek more, run the same tired Lola spec chassis and the same tired old Cosworth Turbo...

and the general business perception....thinks TG is the Anti-Christ....rule by owners with conflict of interest (and for the record, TG has seemed to turn that control over to Chitwood at IMS and Barnhart and others for the Series, so don't go there with Vision Racing, even though TG is still on the Board)

The Hulman family would never walk away from this...don't hold your breath....

At some point, Kalkhoven will either spend until it is coming out his ears to keep the dream alive just because his ego is as big as TG's, or he will say "enough is enough..."

at that point, either we have one Series, or a bunch of OWRS teams decide to race in the ALMS....

Long Beach LOST money this year, according to a report cited in either this Forum or the Other....yet they spend $15 million for it????

TG has a TV contract that PAYS the IRL, a race facility that brings him BIG $$$ from three annual events, a piece of another race facility that is virtually SOLD-OUT for all Season events (Chicagoland, in case anyone is counting) deals at select ISC venues that sell Tix under the same format so he gets his revenue cut whether the people show up or not....

What does OWRS have???

Forenign venues that pay fees...but the expense to haul teams and the Series to these faraway places dip into the profits....US Races that are failing miserably.....Look at the joke that Milwaukee became last weekend with a crowd that was horrible....and a core of "I Hate TG" fanatics that also hate some of the top people in this sport...Bobby Rahal, Michael Andretti, Chip Ganassi, Roger Penske, Adrian Fernandez....just to name a few....

One person posted today int eh other Forum that another driver should not be considered for an open seat because he "was an IRL Driver"....

Does he now have a "Scarlet I" tattooed on his forehead???

Based on the vitriol that is spewed vitually every day in the various open-wheel forums, I WANT one of the two Series to DIE...the sooner the better...

and I sincerely doubt it will be the IRL...because they have money coming in...the other is shelling it out.....

If Honda and Toyota leave, the IRL will go to a production-based engine formula just like the had before those two came aboard...

Big Deal...

They will race. because they have revenue streams that OWRS does NOT have..unless it is KK's Checkbook...

and if he wants to fight theat battle over a sereis of many years, he has more moneythan the has sense...

Sorry for the rant...but the factions in this split are almost enough to make me puke....

[macdaddy]

[IMO]Seems to me that there is more animosity on this board than there is on "the Other" board. Much more. In fact, it's almost appalling and getting worse.[/IMO]