Simona's fire & the pathetic attempt to put it out..

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

i see Ryan's point...i've seen drivers move much quicker from burning of cars. but why couldn't she get out? did she panic or was the head restraint stuck, perhaps, melted in place?

it makes no difference if she was unconscious or not. they extinguished the fire just after she got out, and the fire related injuries would have been just as severe, IMO.

but it is not up to the driver alone to get out. where the drivers fail, the safety crew MUST step in quickly, efficiently and without hesitation.

I know your taking a look at the other side of the coin, but... as motorsport has been made much safer from impacts over the years through head restraints, HANS, etc., it has made it more difficult for drivers to exit vehicles in the case of fire. Even more reason for the safety team to be extremely responsive.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

I know your taking a look at the other side of the coin, but... as motorsport has been made much safer from impacts over the years through head restraints, HANS, etc., it has made it more difficult for drivers to exit vehicles in the case of fire. Even more reason for the safety team to be extremely responsive.

this issue is a three or four sided coin.

let me be clear; there is no way i feel that Simona should be blamed for anything. safety crews are there to protect the drivers after an accident. they failed miserably Saturday night; this is not an opinion.

this thread, with a couple of exceptions, is focused on the incompetent firemen that came to the "rescue". however, this is one of those situations where there were several factors that contributed to the scary incident. some of the awful, fatal motor-racing incidents in the past have been caused by more than one problem or issue while some can be blamed on one single factor; this "incident" was caused by more than one factor. focusing anger and frustration upon ONLY one aspect of a more complex issue will do nothing but change that one specific aspect rather than the larger problem overall.

the questions about how this situation that resulted in the scary moment that should ALSO be answered, other than "WTF was the fire crew doing?" are as follows:

what caused the fire and how can that be prevented in the future?
why was there so much fire?
how did the fire get to the cockpit so quickly?
what kept the driver from being able to exit the vehicle quickly? JagTOH has mentioned some specifics about this very question that need to be addressed, if they were indeed what kept her from existing the vehicle in a timely manner.

motor-racing has and always will have issues regarding fire, as long as combustible fuels and oils are used. the best way to fight a fire is not to have one start in the first place.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

the questions about how this situation that resulted in the scary moment that should ALSO be answered, other than "WTF was the fire crew doing?" are as follows:

what caused the fire and how can that be prevented in the future?
why was there so much fire?
how did the fire get to the cockpit so quickly?
what kept the driver from being able to exit the vehicle quickly? JagTOH has mentioned some specifics about this very question that need to be addressed, if they were indeed what kept her from existing the vehicle in a timely manner.

I've not had close experience with fire suppression on an indycar, but have on various other single seaters and tin tops. the problem with onboard systems is than unless you are lucky enough to have the output of the extinguisher at the seat of the fire, it'll do next to no good. they are usually AFFF and while they can knock the heat out of a fire they don't do anywhere near as good a job as dry powder does at stopping a fire. a lot of single seaters have the output in the cockpit - it might help reduce the effect on the driver or give them more time to survive, but it will rarely put a fire out as most of the time the seat is from behind them within the engine or fuel cell. for that reason i'd never expect the onboard to kill a fire, so don't go blaming that for the time it took to put out.

equipment failure has to be a marshals worst nightmare. sadly, the teams didn't seem to act like one, no one tried to take charge and it really did look bad on them. part of that had to be the confusion over the hoses but in my world emergency responses should be kept simple. we take bottles because they are transportable with relative ease and gives enough time for the cavalery to arrive. using a bottle is quicker than deploying the hose and as its less complicated, therefore less likely to fail.

as for getting her out, i'd like to see the official investigation in to that one. a driver should always be able to get themselves out on their own. i know why on ovals they are told to stay in the car but it was obvious she wanted out but couldn't, but not due to injury. i'd not like to pass judgement on that without details of why it took so long.

i'm just happy that she got out unscathed. a major injury or death in a situation like that would play on the minds of those involved for years and take us back to the bad old days where it was a regular occurance...

[JagtechOhio]

Hepatic, you are exactly correct and one fact published last night bears that out.

Simona did activate the onboard fire system, and in the context of the interview it may have been activated even before the car came to rest.

I was not sure it would have had effect either: my question was one of procedure, in that activation of the master switch by the first responder both cuts off all electrical power and blows the fire bottle. Arriving on the scene, I wouldn't know if the fire system had been activated or not. So the first thing I do would be to pull the ring by the roll hoop. Then attend to the fire with a hand-held.

Removal of the driver's headrest (collar around the top of the cockpit) was in fact the focus of the driver and first responder. Regulations state that two approved clips are the only fasteners required for removal, with no tools necessary.

The headrest was taped in place. Some teams also tape over the clips, which may also have added to the difficulty. Whether there were additional obstructions within the cockpit is unknown: Simona pulled the steering wheel within a few second of stopping the car.

Then 30 seconds were spent by her, and then the responder, working on something in front of her before she was able to lift herself out of the seat. That's where the headrest clips are, and the drink bottle hose, and whetever else may have required removal.

There is a way I figured out to remotely release the headrest assembly, but of course it still wouldn't work if the team tapes it in place. An equipment change may not be necessary, and we'll see what the IRL response is in the coming days.

If you go to Youtube and watch Ed Carpenter's 2008 crash at Chicagoland, you will see an effective strategy that would have worked fine in Simona's nearly identical incident. Why that procedure has been changed is a mystery to me.

Here's the link to the video: see what you think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jzul...xt=1&index=108

[JagtechOhio]

In Carpenter's wreck, the safety truck appears to arrive in a more reasonable amount of time. First guy out has a handheld and goes directly to the fire.

The video edit makes it difficult to verify, but that one extinguisher looks to have done the job in this incident, although the oil had apparently not spread to involve more of the car.

Perhaps Ed had killed the ignition, or the engine stalled on impact. Simona stated that her engine was running until the car came to a stop.

This would enable the dry sump oil pump to continue to fuel the fire as a result of a broken hose or oil cooler. Hitting the kill switch would have probably helped the situation. Adding an inertia switch to the vehicle engine management system would help more, and the memo was sent to Randy Bernard last night.

The Jags I work on have such a device, to disable the fuel injection system and thus kill the engine on inpact or rollover. That race car slid for long time while it was ablaze and still running.

As for the response to Carpenter's crash, the sequence looks logical and proved to be effective. The time taken to remove the headrest is a concern, but the fire is already out. Third man was rapidly on scene to make sure of it.

[JagtechOhio]

Additional to the "inertia switch" proposal: there is already at least one accelerometer onboard to measure g forces on impact. The driver's earpeice records that data and signals the onboard data recorder.

Adding a circuit to communicate this signal to the engine management ECU could accomplish the same goal. Set a signal threshold of perhaps 20 g's to interrupt ignition and fuel injection system power.

That way, the driver...capable of doing so or not...is not required to hit the kill switch. An IndyCar hit that hard will not be drivable, and there are only bad reasons for the engine to continue to run.

[fieldodreams79]

like Hepatic stated and as witnessed in the (alarmingly similar) Ed Carpenter accident, keeping it simple is the best way to go when people's lives are on the line. however, the exiting of an uninjured driver from the cockpit in a timely manner is something should have been addressed after the Carpenter accident, but it was not. I think Simona's fire was a bit larger, perhaps due to the kill switch not being activated, but still.... 20/20 hindsight, maybe.

Jag...i can see an "auto" kill switch causing issues with going off when it is not supposed to, additional bits on the car etc. no?
the taping of the cockpit is worrisome. what is the purpose? aero? a ban on that should be enacted, one would think.

also worrisome is what i read at IRL.com:

The Indy Racing League said it is investigating why the fire retardant hose on the first response vehicle malfunctioned, which prolonged the fire.

surely that ain't all they are looking at?

Simona is cleared to drive by doctor is also mentioned...

[JagtechOhio]

Field, the electronic complexity engineered into these cars...and the reliabilty the features have demonstrated...make our concern sound like something an old guy like me would say.

If you read Honda's description of how the engine and transmission ECUs will be controlled by the new fuel proximity switch during pit stops, you'll see what I mean.

Keeping it simple, the existing fuel inertia switch as used on the Jaguar road cars would remove the complexity of added signal paths.

It's a hands-free kill switch that trips when you crash. Period.

As for the headrest: if we could hold one in our hands, we could see better ways to make it removable. Here's one example:

The securing clips are at each leading end of the collar-shaped headrest. So that's a pin sticking out of the tub on each side, and a clip in the end of the pin, right? Like a Plymouth hood pin.

How the headrest locates to the back of the tub, beneath the airbox, is what I don't know. I presume it wedges under an exiting shelf, and can't move up or forward for removal with the pins at the front engaged. Make sense?

OK, leave the front pins just as they are, clips and all. Just change the shape the front corners of the headrest so that the pins are now also pivot points.

Then attach the rear of the headrest to the tub, at one or two safe points behind the driver's helmet. Even an incapacitated driver's head must be moved to permit removal of the existing headreat now.

Manual removal would mean pulling one or two clips at the base of the airbox, where access is easier from the outside. Then the collar flips forward over the driver's head, pivoting on the front pins.

Yeah, you have to move the driver's head away from the headrest to get it out of the way. Same as now.

Make the rear attacment have a manual release at the top (pin clip), and an electrical one at the base, and you have another thing going for you. Think of the trunk lock release solenoid on your newer Plymouth.

Then you power the latch solenoid with an independant power source: same as the 9V battery that blows the fire bottle, in the event all electrical power is disabled.

Then you activate it the same way, via the master switch. So pulling the master switch ring cuts the power, blows the fire bottle, and pops the rear headrest latch. Driver or responder flips the headrest over the driver's head, and it's laying out of the way on the nose of the car. Front pin clips still in place.

Or, you manually pull the exposed clips and lift the headrest out the same way. One or two more clips to pull for complete removal of the assembly, that's all.

If people are going to tape the headrest to the monocoque, better bring a knife. That's a bad plan, and I believe it is in violation of the stated regulations. Maybe following the rules is all it will take, but there are ways to make it better.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Keeping it simple....

i appreciate that.
and enlightening stuff, too, Jag. thanks.

i've had the kill switch on a passenger vehicle go bad and left me stranded. any "knock" in an IRL car would surely do more damage than merely stalling it. if you say they are fail safe, i believe you.

what is the point of the tape over clips and over any other part of the headrest besides hinder someone from getting it out quickly?

[JagtechOhio]

As for the tape...

Aero overkill? Tape the clips so the driver doesn't catch a sleeve? Dunno.

I'm going to see if I can get a look at a headrest at Rahal's shop. But the "flip over" idea sounds feasable, yes?

[Hepatic]

no to anything electrical - its a possible ignition source. the number of times i've found power still on after a car has crashed because the driver has bypassed the main circuit is not funny. sometimes the reason is nothing more than "if i did that i'd loose all my race data". good thinking batman, save your data but the fire continues to destroy your car anyway...!

taping the headrest is the dumbest idea i've ever heard, but i'm sure i've seen F1 do the same. that has to be stopped by IRL, make it a scrutineering fail by stopping the rapid exit of a driver. maybe a change to the catches will help, ideally they should be workable by the driver and an attending safety crew but the simpler the better. something like a hood catch or the areo style catches would work surely?

[JagtechOhio]

Below is a link to a pretty crappy video, but it shows two things pretty clearly. At about the two minute mark, you can see the perimiter of the cockpit without the headrest installed.

At the conclusion of the video, we get a fairly good look at the headrest. At the rear there are horizontal mounting pins that plug into the chassis, nothing more.

It's not clear to me how the front attachment fastener system is laid out...I certainly see nothing like the Plymouth hood pins in my imagination. They would have to be short so as not to present injury risk to the driver, but that idea of a pivot at the front works.

You can see from the headrest shape, and the airbox area at the 2:00 minute mark, that pivoting the headrest at the front and flipping it over the driver's head after releasing it at the back is quite possible.

That's the plan I would follow.

Hep, I agree...killing the master switch would be the first step of any first responder, no?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HFz-HO_OqE

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Hep, I agree...killing the master switch would be the first step of any first responder, no?

Yes it would.

[JagtechOhio]

By the way, at 1:37 of the same video you can see the mandatory "E" sticker and master switch pull ring.

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Dave, it seems obvious, right?

On an Indycar, that cuts power and blows the fire bottle. Add a latch solenoid to release the headrest at the rear (with redundant manual clips), and you unwrap the whole package with one pull of the ribbon.

[Hepatic]

yes and no. i'm not a fan of the single button does all approach, many times you want to kill the electrics but don't need the fire suppression. a lot of single seaters over here have a double push system - one button, 1st push electrics 2nd extinguisher. they are just as bad because quite often you don't know if it's been done or not, and invariably set the bottle off causing the team more work to get the car ready and costing them a bottle that didn't need to be used.

other series have 2 switches / buttons in about the same place. button is usually a fire extinguisher (same E symbol too) and the switch / pull is the electrics (electric bolt style symbol). the effect is the same but doesn't get let off by accident, and adding a "cockpit release" to the electrics only part would probably work just fine.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

make it a scrutineering fail

Make it a competition on the grid. All the drivers in their cars, set off a signal, anyone not out in the required time doesn't get to race.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Thanks Dave, it seems obvious, right?

By switching off the electrics you are removing potential sources of ignition, thus significantly reducing the risk of fire.

On an Indycar, that cuts power and blows the fire bottle.

I'm with Hepatic on this one. In the vast majority of incidents there is no fire, so setting off the onboard extinguisher is unnecessary; keep the two functions separate but close together & you have the best of both worlds.

[Pete LMC]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Make it a competition on the grid. All the drivers in their cars, set off a signal, anyone not out in the required time doesn't get to race.

Excellent comment, I totaly agree with you, on the same topic but a smaller scale than what we are generally used too as Marshal's.

I attended at the Aintree Circuit ( Liverpool ) a Career's Open Day, aimed at Young Adult's entering Further Education or University to Study Mechanical & Electrical Engineerig.

The University of Lancaster had one of their Student Formula 24 ? Petrol Driven Cars on Display, I was talking to one of the drivers of the car, and he was telling me that one of the Main Criteria for a Potential Driver, to get to drive the car was that he/she from a position of being Fully Strapped in and Ready to Go, had to Completely Release themselves Unaided and Standing Outside the Car in Less Than 5 Seconds, otherwise they were not allowed to drive it.

[Luke Piewalker]

F1 drivers are required to be able to get out of their cars with full gear (including the HANS) on in 5 seconds as Pete said. I remember seeing an injured driver have do it a year or two back before they were allowed to race.
If they have (as has been reported) been taping down the removable cockpit surrounds then this should have been caught and stamped out long before now.

[JagtechOhio]

Driver egress cannot be dependant upon the driver being able to assist. In IndyCar, my first assumption would be that a driver is incapacitated, trapped by obstruction, or injured more severly if a "tug of war" game is the last resort to protecting his safety.

Mike Conway wasn't going to get out of his car quickly. Nor was Nelson Phillipe, Will Power, Vitor Meira, etc.

The F Atlantic and Can Am cars I used to work on had separate external master and fire system switches, and the IndyCar setup as described in the rulebook surprised me. Still, the power must be cut and in the case of Simona's accident, the first responder had no way to know if the fire system had been activated by the driver or not. Pull the ring.

Anybody see the problem with the pivoting headrest concept?

[Luke Piewalker]

Oh I'll grant you you can't assume the driver is capable of assisting in the egress from the vehicule. From my viewing of the incident it seemed we had a fit driver who could not get out of their car unassisted which suggests something needs looked at, probably this issue of the taped cockpit surround.
I'm sure the rescue crew involved have already spent plenty of time debriefing and working out what went wrong.
I'm watching as we speak old Canadian Grand Prix footage where Suzuki took the extinguisher himself to tackle a fire...

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Anybody see the problem with the pivoting headrest concept?

Possibly head movement in the case of neck injuries? I imagine at the moment it can be unclipped at the front and cut at the rear to remove it while keeping the driver's head imobilised. A permanent fitting at the front may mean extra cutting? Also, I wonder if the driver can move their head far enough forward with a Hans device on to drop it into place.

[JagtechOhio]

Thanks Wool,

The headrest has to be detached at the front now, and pulled forward to disengage the rear pins( visible in the Andretti video). That means moving the driver's head.

The front attachment points could still be secured by a clip on each side, same as now. But you could just remove the clip atop the vertical pin at the rear, and flip it forward over the driver's head. Leave the front ones in place, or pull them as a second option to remove the complete assembly.

I don't think there is an easy way of cutting them now, here's a little more on the construction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6P7Ctjbtw

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Thanks Dave, it seems obvious, right?

On an Indycar, that cuts power and blows the fire bottle. Add a latch solenoid to release the headrest at the rear (with redundant manual clips), and you unwrap the whole package with one pull of the ribbon.

Thanks for an interesting thread guys.

The above seems to be complete sense.

When a marshall is triggering the fire system it has passed the point where cleaning powder out of the bits and pieces matters!
The main power switch should be turned off by the driver in the cockpit.

The solenoid should be made to fail to safe, so when the power is disconnected the clip no longer retains the headrest, there is still a problem in a major accident when the car breaks up and it may be better the headrest stays in the car.

Just on a separate note the F1 headrests seem to come out very easily and yet stay in place in a big impact as in the case of Robert Kubica's accident, so maybe there is an answer there.

The grid exersize in practicing the 5 sec release sounds excellent as it would prevent stupid last minute mods like tape and bottle hoses.

All the devices should release in the same way, and the marshalls should receive training in the release.

I hope the F1 guys have been looking and taking notes now that they have conveniently forgotten about fire hazards and doubled the fuel loads!

A few years ago Simona would have died in that accident - thank god for the safety campaigns!