Honda Indy Edmonton

[JagtechOhio]

Here's a video that shows more:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6...eature=channel

[Peat]

I'm just gobsmacked. I'm not a Helio fan, but i feel totally outraged on his behalf. I'm a champion of IndyCar to my freinds, how can i show them that????

[icemachine]

From watching the video's, I'd have to say that Will went too wide on his passing attempt to have had any hope of making it. Bad call by Barnhardt

[Woolley]

I'm high on the list of people who are against blocking, but that depends on the definition of blocking. Unfair movement, causing another driver to take avoiding action, leaving insufficient space all deserve penalty. I can't see any of that going on here. Will Power went wide first and wasn't required to change his line in any way as a result of Helio's approach to the corner. Sure he changed it mid-corner because he also needed to allow Helio space as they were still only side by side, but blocking? No. Both drivers were perfectly fair IMO.

Helio went a little over the top afterwards (entertaining to watch) and it's ill advised for someone his size to grab the shirt of someone that size, but I think he has a point. Utterly unsatisfactory end to what had been a reasonable race.

[MCWB]

I agree with 6157 on this one. The rule is there, everyone knows about it. IMHO it's a silly rule with a worse penalty, but that's neither here nor there.

From Barnhart:

"The rules are clear on it. In every drivers' meeting we talk about it. On road courses we divide the track physically in half, and from the braking point to entry they're told you can only be on the inside half if you're attempting to overtake someone.

"If you're on the inside half while someone is trying to overtake you, it's blocking. Unfortunately... I know they're competitive guys and it was late in the race, but it really wasn't a difficult call to make.

"It is what it is. The rule book states the penalty for blocking is a minimum of a black flag drive-through penalty. It's a shame it comes down to that, but as officials we just respond to the situation presented to us. And we respond according to the rules."

Did Helio defend his position by moving to the inner half of the track? I think the answer to that is clearly yes. Is the penalty applied just? Hell no!

The rule (and penalty) is stupid, but the implementation of the rule was correct.

[marcostraz]

I think the decision was taken because there was the restart...I don't think that any time a drivers is on the inside he has to be...in that case, in every situation of outside overtaking, the driver on the inside should be penalized...and this usually doesn't happen...I think the rule is applied only for the restarts...

[JagtechOhio]

Hey MC,

At the end of the video clip I put up, they are pointing out the violation as Helio's entry into turn one and the fact that he held the inside line.

It that not what is in dispute here?

So how was Helio supposed to yield the inside line, when Power was trying to pass him on the outside?

Power makes the outside move just past the start/ finish. If Helio moves outside, he would have been blocking the move, or have hit him.

Once Power is even along side, is Helio supposed to brake early and concede the corner? That's what the rule suggests, that you can't be on the inside half of the track if you are being overtaken.

The rule is written for a different set of circumstances, and should not have been applied in this one. If the inside half of the track is for passing and the outside is for slower traffic, then Power has no business trying to go around the outside of Helio. You could interpret the rule as saying that Power forced Helio to the inside line.

This rule is to prevent blocking on narrow street race corners where there is only one manageable line.

The corner leading onto the front straight at Brazil is no different than this one. Nobody was penalized for holding the inside line there, when they were being challenged by a car on the outside. I'm thinking that the corner at the end of the back straight at the same track was the same story.

If Power goes to the inside, he wins the race...unless he blocks Helio as he tries to retake the lead at the next corner.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Does the blocking rule take into account the driver, as in Helio's case, had already committed himself to taking the corner on that line?

[JagtechOhio]

The video clip posted has Barnhart's statement in the driver's meeting. That help?

[Taprobane]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Hey MC,

At the end of the video clip I put up, they are pointing out the violation as Helio's entry into turn one and the fact that he held the inside line.

It that not what is in dispute here?

So how was Helio supposed to yield the inside line, when Power was trying to pass him on the outside?

Power makes the outside move just past the start/ finish. If Helio moves outside, he would have been blocking the move, or have hit him.

Once Power is even along side, is Helio supposed to brake early and concede the corner? That's what the rule suggests, that you can't be on the inside half of the track if you are being overtaken.

The rule is written for a different set of circumstances, and should not have been applied in this one. If the inside half of the track is for passing and the outside is for slower traffic, then Power has no business trying to go around the outside of Helio. You could interpret the rule as saying that Power forced Helio to the inside line.

This rule is to prevent blocking on narrow street race corners where there is only one manageable line.

The corner leading onto the front straight at Brazil is no different than this one. Nobody was penalized for holding the inside line there, when they were being challenged by a car on the outside. I'm thinking that the corner at the end of the back straight at the same track was the same story.

If Power goes to the inside, he wins the race...unless he blocks Helio as he tries to retake the lead at the next corner.

This doesn't make sense at all to me. It is clear that Helio went straight down the inside coming from the previous corner and never intended to take the outside racing line through the corner, there was no way for Will to make a pass on the inside. The fact of the matter is that Helio was in front and therefore had the choice of what part of the track to use, Will can't 'force' Helio anywhere.

Though to be fair, it's an idiotic rule.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

The video clip posted has Barnhart's statement in the driver's meeting. That help?

It does thanks. Still don't see why a driver can't defend his position, you can in other OW formulae.

[JagtechOhio]

As soon as Power goes outside, Helio has 3 choices.

1) move out and block him
2) maintain his line
3) think "uh oh, I'm on the inside line and he is overtaking me. If I maintain my line into the corner, I will be violating the blocking rule. So I should brake early and concede the inside line before entry".

Not sure how you look at the video and see it differently, or get a different interpretation from the rule.

[icemachine]

I don't really understand what the move was that is construed as blocking. It appears Helio was a bit inside the normal race line coming down the straight, and as Power pulled outside to attempt a pass Helio moves just a little bit out to set up the corner, and Power then goes way wide to avoid any contact. Once Power was that far out, Helio had no option but to take the inside as anything else would have run Power out of track.

The only way I see it as blocking is if the Rules say that drivers must follow the racing line unless attempting a pass.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

As soon as Power goes outside, Helio has 3 choices.

1) move out and block him
2) maintain his line
3) think "uh oh, I'm on the inside line and he is overtaking me. If I maintain my line into the corner, I will be violating the blocking rule. So I should brake early and concede the inside line before entry".

Not sure how you look at the video and see it differently, or get a different interpretation from the rule.

I'm not seeing it differently, or interpreting it differently, I'm questioning the rule because if that were an F1 race Helio wouldn't have been penalized.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

It can be seen at the Versus site here - http://www.versus.com/blogs/indycar/...st-recent/i/2/

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Here's a video that shows more:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e-J6...eature=channel

Thanks for posting up the vision. Wow thats some serious rage there. Grabbing someone who's obviously bigger then him by the shirt collar was not a good move, I think Spiderman should've climbed a fence to vent......

[JagtechOhio]

That's the problem, it is a rule written by Cotman from the CCWS street parade days.

Unless there is something about the rule or the explanation I'm not getting, the problem starts at about the start-finish line on the video. You can see the line that the cars behind are taking. Helio is the leader on a straightwaway wide enough to run ten-wide.

But staying "Inside" the normal "racing line" is what they consider his position to be. And it sure looks like he's there long before the braking zone. But he's not a "slower car" until somebody faster starts to overtake him.

So when Power goes outside, I don't know what Helio is expected to do. He certainly can't move up to block Power then. Brake early and surrender the corner, I guess.

[NaBUru38]

I watched the race today in a replay. Since there had a 2-hour window, instead of cutting the intersting post-race interviews as usual, they cut the first round of pitstops and the tangle between Viso and De Silvestro. So I was fuming before the last restart. How was the tangle?

Originally Posted by Aloysius

I've never been an Helio fan, or Penske, but they were robbed today.

Yes they where. Power always had plenty of room to drive, Hélio never pushed him. I don't understand IRL's concept of blocking, but to me keeping the inside line the whole time obviously shouldn't be.

Originally Posted by 6157

The current rule is designed to open up passing lanes to increase passing attempts and yes, it clearly spells out YOU CANNOT DEFEND YOUR LINE. As a "leading" car, you must drive the "common racing line"

That's the story. That is IT.

If that's true, IRL officials are insane. How wouldn't a driver be allowed to take the inside line to defend the position? Blocking would be Power moving to the left (as he did) and Hélio doing the same before Power reaches his tail, or Hélio moving to the left, Power staying in the inside, and Hélio moving again to the inside before braking.

Originally Posted by Aloysius

Helio had every right to react like he did, and I would really have liked to see him take a swing at Barnhardt.

No he didn't, he should have kept calm. But how would anyone in such a situation?

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

Being a Penske driver though and the whole "team first" concept that is preached there, Power throwing Castroneves under a bus saying "yeah, he blocked me" surprises me. You think Cindric or whoever would've gotten a hold of Power and for the sake of trying to get Helio reinstated the victory tell Power if interviewed, "he didn't block you".

Agree, I'm very surprised too.

[JagtechOhio]

Yeah Rich, that was the d*ck move of the day.

Thank goodness for the wonders of Permanent Press, crafted into every fashionable garment from the Izod line.

[KSR88]

Helio got screwed--but it provides some real insight into what is going on at Penske.
Interestingly, per all the drivers interviewed-except Helio-he violated what was defined as blocking at the drivers meeting.(being inside the white lines going into the turn-notice that Power went outside the white line per the rule). He had no friends step up to defend him.
Like it or not those are their rules...just as stupid as NASCAR's restart rule that Timo Bernard broke 3 times in last years Grandam series...but the rules that apply.
Then, either he or his crew decided to ignore the black flag and keep racing. At the lowest levels of racing ignoring the black flag gets you a ticket home....and a visit with the stewards about your behavior. Helio got a free pass for this.
So--that is two violations....he was just warming up.

What is very bothersome is his total loss of control-throwing his helmet, running around, ranting, grabbing 2 officials. Just imagine how many days off and the size of the fine in American baseball if a hitter grabbed an ump and shook him.
Recall the Detroit pitcher that had a perfect game taken away by inept officiating---unhappy but he didn't go berserk. And, historically 100 times more significant in American sports than the nothing Edmonton GP indy car race. A real read on the person inside the suit.

Roger had to read him the riot act to get the PR written apology.
I imagine Roger also had to rip on Cindric---the lack of team planning for an airport course restart turned a Penske 1-2 into a Ganassi 1-3. Nice.
If I was Roger I would also want to know who decided that Power, the championship leader, should be the only guy in the race on hard tires at the end.
Very strange events.
Wonder how much of this was triggered by Will Power's cover on Racer magazine inflaming Helio's ego.

[914URY]

Here is what Paul Tracy said in his blog. The ruling may have been applied correctly but it is a stupid rule.....


"As far as the penalty is concerned, I agree with it. I think all the drivers (except one) agree with it. It was spelled out to us very clearly in the driver meeting how to treat the corner. The natural braking and corner-entry line for Turn 1 is on the outside of the white stripes down the runway. The right side is only to be used for trying to pass someone on the inside. If you go to the right side to keep someone behind, then you're gonna get called on it. Well, Helio drove the whole straight on the other side to keep Will Power behind him. You live your life, you make your choices: Helio chose to block his teammate, he got penalized for it and it cost Penske a win."

[JagtechOhio]

First, welcome to the club 914.

Second, thanks for posting the Tracy quote.

I still maintain that Helio can take any line he wants as the leader. He's not doing anything to keep Power behind him.

Once Power moves outside, he can't do anything to keep Power behind him. Nor can he move outside from the inner half of the track, because Power is there.

If the (driver's) right side of the stripes is no man's land, move the cones out to keep drivers from running there. Otherwise, the leader taking the flag can run any line he wants.

[icemachine]

Well from what Paul is saying it sounds like the IndyCar officials wanted to setup a 'free' overtaking zone. That sounds pretty cheap and contrived to me, and hopefully it gets changed, but if it was the rule, then Helio broke it and suffers the consequences, like it or lump it.

[cptkablamo]

The rule is fine on tight tracks, but there was more than a car's width on the inside of Helio so to say he was blocking, to the TV viewer at least is insane...It did not LOOK like a block cause the one-rule-fits-all doesn't quite fit all on an airport circuit.

[Armco Bender]

Grabbing someone who's obviously bigger then him by the shirt collar was not a good move,

Thats what I thought too,pity someone didn't sit the spoiled brat on his bum.

[JagtechOhio]

Cpt, that seems exactly the point. Hopefully Miller will send an answer on his Facebook, to confirm that this was a Cotman rule from San Jose that has been adopted by the IRL.

Cotman backed up Barnhart's call 100%. The rule is the rule, with apparently no discretion used to enforce it.