JP's comments in Motorsport

[graeme]

Did someone 'round here say they were talking to Jonathan Palmer? Could you put him right on his comments in Motorsport: "the entry fee is a minimal part of club racing". Er, no it isn't! Its usually more than 50% of my race weekend; maybe he's thinking of Radicals et al with their big transporter and team of mechanics...

[johnw]

Hi Graeme
May have been me, as I was talking to the good doctor as mentioned in the "Another good ideas thread".

I show below, part of a mail I received from him. It probably explains his thinking and puts in context the fees he receives for circuit hire.

.......It does concern me though that circuit hire fees seem to receive the brunt of criticism for the costs of going racing. The reality is the element of cost that goes to the circuit for a fundamental racing facility is a small proportion of the costs competitors incur going racing. You might like to do the exercise of working out how much this is. Our race event circuit hire rates are about:

Brands Indy £18,000 Cadwell £7,000 Oulton £14,000
Snetterton £9,000

This rate is for about 8 hours of circuit time. If you assume that a minimum of 24 cars should be racing and that a typical club race involves say a 30 minute slot (allowing a generous 10 minutes between one finishing and the next starting) of (a) qualifying and (b) racing, this leaves the circuit hire cost per race entry being:

Brands Indy £94
Cadwell £36
Oulton £73
Snetterton £47

Do you really think this is excessive? How does this compare to the costs of fuel to get to the circuit, tyres, engines, accidents, car preparation, hotels etc?

To the above we have to add MSA insurance(about £30 per driver per event I believe), plus whatever your organising club needs to add to remain solvent.
JP pointed out that the rates alone for Brands were circa £700,000, so I guess its easy to see why Octagon were loss making.
How many 8 race meetings did I go to last season when there were 24 cars on the grid for each race? Not many, if any.
The shortfall means that we have to pay higher entry fees, in order to rent the circuits.

In my case the entry fees came to about 32% of the season budget, so maybe I'm spending more money on fuel, towing and a helper than you?
Whatever, the only piece of my budget which I can see a way of reducing is the entry fee. Hence trying to get us all a share of the gate, and therefore needing to get some paying spectators in.

MSV are in the business to make profit, not to sponsor club racing. If they can promote meetings themselves and take the profit, we will still be paying increasing entry fees. (Or maybe not, by stopping racing as it gets out of reach.)

If we club racers can ensure full grids, better entertainment, and that we try to get some gate share, it may just reduce our entries. If we do nothing, it certainly will not.

[graeme]

Streuth! You don't add it up, do you? I'd just cry if I found out how much I spend... Entry fees making up a third of costs is probably a sensible estimate, but this weekend's expenditure at Donington is probably £200 (£165 entry fee + £20 towcar fuel + £15 racecar fuel) - that's more than a three quarters. (Hopefully no damage to pay for).

A minimum of 24 cars racing at Cadwell??? (Actually, I think the variation in circuit starting capacity is a disadvantage in getting more people out in races: you go to Anglesey or Cadwell and some people don't get a race and never turn up again, then you go to Combe and only use half the capacity).

[Stephen Green]

Maybe the series co-ordinator should look at the circuit which allows the least starters and then apply that to the whole series. For example, if the shorter circuits only allow a 24 car grid, then make that the 'norm' and try to guarantee that number at each meeting. By doing so I imagine it would at least start to impact on your entry fees?

[MikeM]

Depends Stephen, if the circuit hire is the same whatever then the only affect is if you need more facilities, extra rescue vehicles etc. The variety makes it more interesting, at least for competitors

[Stephen Green]

Fair point Mike.

[MikeM]

Got me thinking, rough calcs for last season (ignoring major costs from a big accident - ie "normal" running costs) Bear in mind that I do a "local" championship so only travel to Anglesey.
Entry fees - 35%
Tyres - 21%
Engine - 14%
Damage - 9%
Travel/Accom - 9%
Misc bits - 8%
Petrol - 4%
Unfortunately, I know how much I spent!! Just thought it might be interesting though.

[graeme]

I think most series hit a maximum of around 25 for that reason - its just so much hassle to progress beyond that number. The smallest circuits most series visit are Anglesey and Lydden with 22 and 21 starters; but perhaps this isn't too much of a problem as they are fairly remote and may be a few less competitors go.

But aren't we always being told to increase the numbers of cars in races. Perhaps a bit of flexability on the part of the MSA with starting numbers might help? You can get a greater number of starters for longer races, but how about for two starts within a race (class "B" on union jack) or, as I've seen at Spa, for a rolling start. Both of these would have helped us in the past. To be fair, BARC and other organisers have usually been helpful with putting on extra grids where required, but we did have to reject a dozen cars at Rockingham last year; especially galling when other races only had ten cars.

The worse scenerio, which we seem to get around in Graduates by having a "multi-class" championship (even though effectively its three seperate championships usually with a grid each), is that a novice comes out for his first race then gets kicked out after qualifying 'cos he's amongst the slowest - you're not likely to see him coming back for more... Much better that those who put their entries in late are reserves...?

Maybe what we should be doing is that when two series turn up at Combe, Silverstone, Thruxton, etc. with 15 cars a piece, they should be run in the same race (with seperate starts)? Not great for the slower series but best use of tracktime. Then put on a cheapy allcomers race at the end of the day (or finish the meeting on time!) - more value for the drivers AND spectators. But I've never really seen this done.

[Keith Wheeler]

As someone who only has the time to race occasionally, I'd like to see every meeting have an 'allcomers' race so that I could 'cherrypick' meetings to suit my availability, rather than have to register for a particular championship.
With temporary membership of the organising club added to the entry fee, I think it would allow those with time/money restrictions to still get a race when they wanted it.

[johnw]

Graeme
Yes I did add it up, to respond to JP with an accurate figure. But this was the first time, and it did make me wonder about continuing.
Takes some explaining to anyone sane doesn't it?

I like your idea of two starts within a race and combining low supported series. I'm sure that I have seen it done in the dim and distant. Maybe we could have two differnet coloured chequered flags, so that the slower series winner still gets to take it? (Haven't thought this through, so apologies if it doesn't work!)
Always been a fan of an all comers race, particualrly if it's handicap format. The Eight Clubs final team race was a blast and always oversubscribed, but you had to race during the day to be eligible. Made great economic sense too.

Well remember Rockingham last year when we watched 8 cars in one race and a number of your guys bewailing the fact that they couldn't get an entry. Not right.

I think that the BARC do a great job in trying to mitigate entry fees across the season and circuits. Maybe we should make your suggestions on combining to Dale?

Stephen
I started racing at Lydden and Brands only, but would not welcome being that restricted again. You only have to see the number of us who want to race at Zolder, Zandvoort, Spa and even Croix to understand that most of us like variety (and maybe a sense of history?).
There are enough prepped cars out there somewhere, we need to work to get more of them competing, mor of the time.

Mike M
What are you using for fuel, and how can I get some?
Here are my figs for last season.
We use Kumho road legal tyres and they are brilliant for wear. Also I do little or no testing.
Fuel and oil 27%
Tyres 12%
Brakes 7.5%
Engine 15%
Damage 7.5%
Entry fees 31%

[greenamex2]

Track days are looking more and more appealing every day.

As much track time as you can handle. You can do what you like to your car. Always lots of cars. Get treated like a human being. Your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/bit on the side can really join in.

Just pity they are just full of posers that can't drive.

Funny how this thread has come back to the subject of higher grid numbers for series, probably through amalgamation. Given the number of new series/championships this year you do begin to wonder just how bloody stupid the club and MSA people are, or do they know something we don't?

[Snapper Baz]

Keith...did you say RACE?... Iv'e seen quicker queues for the dentist!!!!

[Woolley]

Originally posted by graeme
Maybe what we should be doing is that when two series turn up at Combe, Silverstone, Thruxton, etc. with 15 cars a piece, they should be run in the same race (with seperate starts)? Not great for the slower series but best use of tracktime. Then put on a cheapy allcomers race at the end of the day (or finish the meeting on time!) - more value for the drivers AND spectators. But I've never really seen this done.

Thank goodness, I'm not alone. I've been advocating this for years, along with someone please (MSA?) take responsibility for reducing the number of series.

The overwhelming thing that club racing needs is fully supported races. It's what the spectators want to see, marshals feel it's worth giving time for, circuits want to utilise their capacity for and drivers get best value for money from (and probably a better chance of actually having someone to race against).

Virtually all motorsport GBs problems, in my opinion, stem from to many undersubscribed series.

[johnw]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
Your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/bit on the side can really join in.

Bloody hell Denis, what do you run, an Espace?

[johnw]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
Given the number of new series/championships this year you do begin to wonder just how bloody stupid the club and MSA people are, or do they know something we don't?

Maybe they do Denis.
Our previously increasing registration numbers have reduced by 60% this year. In anticipation, we made plans to amalgamate, and hopefully our race numbers will still be good.
T'is disturbing though.

[graeme]

I think most series are very frightened/negative to amalgamation. I've certainly seen days when two classes of the same series didn't come to a gridful, but were run on seperate grids. But its often too late (the organisers are too lazy!?) to combine them when this becomes obvious. And you are left with an empty race slot (unless you put on an allcomers race - which usually isn't very popular at the likes of Pembrey, when drivers want to get home; I'm sure it'd work at Mallory, Silverstone and other central circuits).

We do seem to have figured out what's wrong with British club motorsport and what to do about it - I wonder when the MSA and the organisers will catch up?

[Stephen Green]

Guys, as racers have you ever thought seriously about speaking to the MSA? In my experience they are always willing to listen to good ideas and at the worst, can only say no to your suggestions. It might be worth an e-mail of telephone call don't you think?

[greenamex2]

johnw - for track days a kit car but it has a couple of big boots!!!!

Stephen Green - Got a good email address for the MSA???

[graeme]

I have thought about talking to the MSA, but I've never found them particularly helpful. (And its so much easier just to ***** on a web forum...!). May be I should get over my predudice and get in touch. A (real, rather than virtual) forum between drivers and the MSA would be good; once a year?

[MikeM]

John, I guessed petrol at 15 litres a meeting which seems about right for an FF at 2 x 20 miles per meeting? (I don't keep accurate figures as my wife might see them LOL) Interesting comparison.

[archibold]

Just as an alternative thought instead of charging per car on the entry form and trying to balance things out, maybe the organising club should charge per race. All competitors enter with a credit card and based upon the number of entries the cost is split. Minimum grid applies e.g. less than 10 no race occurs or it is amalgamated to make it affordable.

This would soon eradicate the weaker series without all the need to count cars/negotiate/remove championship status etc.

Bit harsh I know, but just pure market forces at work. The bigger series may then decide to "buy" more track time to have longer races.

Sounds better than 32 stock hatches subsidising 6 pre 1952 French F2 cars (or whatever ?)

Archibold

PS The all-comers race would be cheap extra fun as it would be a full grid.

[Stephen Green]

www.msauk.org is their website and you should be able to get the contact numbers from there.

[archibold]

Sorry didn't make that very clear:

"All competitors enter with a credit card and based upon the number of entries <B> IN THEIR RACE </B> the cost is split."

Archibold

[graeme]

Or you get one-minute of race time per driver? Ten drivers = 10-minute race; thirty drivers = 30-minute race!???

[MikeM]

Neat idea Graeme