Audi LMP1 Discussion

[J Jay]

He's done Spa 24 at least once, back in 2014. But apart from that actual GTs don't seem to be his thing.

On the Japanese side, he had arguably the most prestigious seat in Super GT (GT500 Nismo a.k.a. "The Red Car") from 2008-2011, and before that he had been with Impul since 2002. But again, there's no GT300 to be found in his records.

[Starfish Primer]

I also see Treluyer retiring, outside the LMP1 he hasn´t been doing too much. Fassler and Lotterer have been in with Corvette and Super Formula/SuperGT. Duval and Di Grassi are in Formula-e and Jarvis drove DTM and GT in the past.

[gert]

You're completely right of course. I forgot his Nissan years.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

Your information is different to everything else that has been talked about here. Toyota's budget is in the 7 figures that much is known. Numerous outlets say the same thing. And numerous outlets report Audi above $200 million. How is that trying to make Toyota's effort look better?

I am only aware of pruett posting that superestimated value . German media already posted values of VW total motorsport spending and we could deduce quite confidently that total wec would be no more than 300m.

Audi confirmed that with the 100m claim, so audi lmp1 total spending was around 130m with employers wage.

At least audi isn't going to f1 which makes this withdraw not so sad

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

Your information is different to everything else that has been talked about here. Toyota's budget is in the 7 figures that much is known. Numerous outlets say the same thing. And numerous outlets report Audi above $200 million. How is that trying to make Toyota's effort look better?

I can't believe Toyotas budget is in the 7 figures range. That makes it less than $10m. I'd like a source on that one please.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by bobec

It has nothing to do with the Dodo bird or evolution. I personally doubted the high-nose design would work for Le Mans, but the reasons why Audi had no other choice but to go this radical way have been discussed. The reasons for Audi to leave the WEC have also been discussed. So no need to aim at Audi fans while claiming you're not intending to be harsh, because everyone can see through it, apart from it being not on point.

I am using a smartphone right now so won't bother with a proper response but, for now, i can say that your biased fanboyistic views are so blatant that it's even funny(not
iceable already with the nonsense concerning f1)

edit: Sorry bobec, i mean this all to bavila. Hate to be without my pc working

[YorkshireLad]

Watching darts on itv tonight, Audi's Lemans advert came on during the break.. wow what a horrid feeling knowing it's no more, felt very sad.




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[ederss7]

About the #8's issue: "A displacer separated in the fuel tank of the number 8 Audi, preventing us from refueling as scheduled".

[chernaudi]

Looking at the condition of some of the decaling on the cars, I'm not surprised that there's quality control issues with the cars mechanical and electronic bits. I think that the 2 car team staff cutbacks have also hurt Audi.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Artur

I am only aware of pruett posting that superestimated value . German media already posted values of VW total motorsport spending and we could deduce quite confidently that total wec would be no more than 300m.

Audi confirmed that with the 100m claim, so audi lmp1 total spending was around 130m with employers wage.

At least audi isn't going to f1 which makes this withdraw not so sad

No, the German media said they would save about 100 million a year by dropping WEC to go to Formula E. They're keeping nearly all the staff in some form unless they want to leave. It's not just Marshall Pruett, but I'm sure the RLM guys have said a few times that Audi (and maybe Porsche) outspend Toyota by at least 2-1.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I can't believe Toyotas budget is in the 7 figures range. That makes it less than $10m. I'd like a source on that one please.

I didn't mean 7, that was a typo on my part. I don't know if Rebellion is even that low 10's of millions, so 8-figures. If Vasselon says a quarter of their f1 budget (around $300 million) that's around $75 million.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

If Vasselon says a quarter of their f1 budget (around $300 million) that's around $75 million.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/2...-budget-4456m/

[TF110]

That's out of date. The latest number was £200 million or $330 million https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...formula-one-f1

Formula One only has itself to blame for expanding rapidly with highly paid technicians and making the payroll a significant item of expenditure. That figure accounts for at least 30% of the Toyota team's $330m (£200m) 2009 budget, into which the parent company paid $214m, the rest coming from sponsorship and television fees. And this was a substantial reduction from a €390m ($580m at today's rate) budget in 2006.

[ederss7]

You people still believe these budget "speculations"? I'd only care about them when I hear officially from each manufacturer. Also, as I said before, there are a lot of other things to consider about the relative budget for each team. If two teams have the same budget, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're in equal conditions. So it's not fair comparing two teams, even if we knew their exact budget , without knowing exactly what happens behind each of them, including mentality, structure, country, etc.

[TF110]

The budget topic was brought up because of how much Audi spent and that makes it hard for other teams to come in and be competitive. There's no reason to go to the wec if you can spend the same doing F1.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

That's out of date. The latest number was £200 million or $330 million https://www.theguardian.com/sport/bl...formula-one-f1

Ok, so their budget was reduced post-2008. Now did Vasselon refer to that reduced budget, or what Toyota used to spend in general?

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

The budget topic was brought up because of how much Audi spent and that makes it hard for other teams to come in and be competitive. There's no reason to go to the wec if you can spend the same doing F1.

If my information is correct, the top 3 teams in F1 spend more than 400. McLaren does as well.
Then the budgets for teams like Sauber, Williams, Force India are apparently under 200.
The point is, why would a manufacturer want to be a mid-grid team, if even the best of them? I think it makes sense only if you start winning at some point, and a WEC budget may not be enough.

[chunder]

I would disagree with the notion that spending the same in F1 makes more sense than WEC.

Audi have spent all their money in every series but F1, as have Subaru and usd motorsport to completely revolutionise their image.

I think only really Honda have really used F1 to promote their image and link their tech to road cars and the like.

Renault have done the same to some extent. Have Mercedes really done it? Did Peugeot? Toyota? I don't really think so.

I think Audi have done a fabulous job of using motorsport as a way of generating a range of cars, the S line cars for instance, that was easily promoted via car racing as was TDI. It only really appeals to certain people a diesel performance car, but if I was wealthy enough to be in that market I would buy an Audi performance diesel over say a Jag, Mercedes or Lexus.

Toyota haven't really linked their range to racing, and Porsche don't really need to, but Nissan were getting there, you never saw Nismo branding on cars before their aggressive marketing policy with Sony and Gran Turismo, it was a purely Japanese thing, which for me is why the whole debacle was such a shame.

You can see Volvo doing it in some places and Toyota clearly in the USA

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I didn't mean 7, that was a typo on my part. I don't know if Rebellion is even that low 10's of millions, so 8-figures. If Vasselon says a quarter of their f1 budget (around $300 million) that's around $75 million.

Ah that makes sense. I'd imagine Toyota to be in the 7 figures. Maybe at a push touching $100m.

But, it might not be as obvious as that. Porsches development costs may be higher if they develop more kit in house, and if Toyota purchase it in. There's lots of reasons a budget could be lower.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ah that makes sense. I'd imagine Toyota to be in the 7 figures. Maybe at a push touching $100m.

But, it might not be as obvious as that. Porsches development costs may be higher if they develop more kit in house, and if Toyota purchase it in. There's lots of reasons a budget could be lower.

TMG have their own wind tunnel. Wouldn't they have a cost advantage compared to other teams when developing their own aero?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by bobec

TMG have their own wind tunnel. Wouldn't they have a cost advantage compared to other teams when developing their own aero?

Not really, even though it's their own tunnel it costs money to use it for the LMP1 programme since they can't rent it out to other customers as they frequently do during these times.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bobec

TMG have their own wind tunnel. Wouldn't they have a cost advantage compared to other teams when developing their own aero?

Could do, and this is a good example. TMG already had the wind tunnel, so the cost was absorbed into the cost of the F1 project before. So it's cheaper (but not free, as it costs resources to run it, and makes it unavailable for customers) for them to use their wind tunnel than it is for Audi to hire Saubers wind tunnel. Since hiring a tunnel would take the same overheads of staff and energy, but the owner will add a profit margin on top. Therefore Audis project costs more to run, because Toyota already had facilities from a previous project.

So in this specific case, is it really correct to say that Toyota run that part of their budget better, or is it more accurate to say Audi have to spend more because they don't have the facilities to do things in house?

A cynic would say that the reason Toyota can run this part of their budget better is because they had an over expensive, failure of an F1 project, whilst Audi didn't. I don't believe that's true obviously, but I can see the argument there and it's kinda valid if you want to push the issue.

My point is: sometimes cheaper isn't because they do things more efficiently. It's not as simple as that.

[Starfish Primer]

Cost accounting is a hard problem in finance. It is not as easy as compare budgets, you need to know how the company is structured and all the Customer-Provider relationship they have.

But even considering that I have the feeling that Toyota is far to Audi in spending terms.

[ederss7]

That's what I was talking about. Some people want to compare those budgets, which are pure speculations, when there are so many things to consider other than the budget itself.

[TF110]

I think Toyota makes 80, 90% of their car with their own companies and suppliers. That might a help to contain costs. Plus TMG has two windtunnels, so they can run in one and rent the other if they're not renting both and schedule their own runs around it. Yeah that probably saves money over renting out Sauber's. But does all that equate to spending half or even 2/3 of what Audi or Porsche does?

[chernaudi]

Audi have said in the press that switching from WEC to FE will save them 100 million Euros (or $111 million USD). I'd assume add that to whatever their factory FE budget will be and you'll probably get close to what they and Porsche each have spent on WEC.

If Toyota are spending 1/4 of their F1 budget on WEC, it depends on what year they're referring to their budget on, be it 2007-ish (446 million Euros/493 million USD) or 2009 (about 300 million Euro/333 million USD), also taking into effect that TMG's budget for the WEC has increased quite a bit the past couple of years over what it was 2014 and earlier.

I don't think that Toyota are spending much over 100 million USD, probably several million below that, though they've obviously closed the gap compared to past seasons starting with the run up to this season.

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, those "hard numbers" aren't so hard, because you have to consider what funding comes from where and who else might be chipping in money, namely corporate sponsors and other things.

Though outside of associate/partner sponsorship (which are largely automotive or motor industry related), there's not much sponsorship to be found in the WEC for the factory efforts. It's not like when Audi were in the ALMS with Joest and Infineon dumped quite a bit of outside corporate sponsor money into the team, as ADT/Tyco and also at various points Canon, Infineon and quattro GmbH (now Audi Sport Performance Cars) also did with Champion. And we know that since 2006 that Total dumped a sizable sum of money as a sponsor for Peugeot until the end of that program. We know little about any similar sponsorship deals with Audi Sport as far as their financial contributions.