ALMS 2012 Discussion

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Matt

What the heck does BoP mean?

Balance of Performance

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Matt

What the heck does BoP mean?

A crock of ****, that's what BoP is!

Technically, it stands for balance of performance. In practice, it's a unstable and sometimes politicized success ballast in Grand-Am, ALMS, and increasingly ACO racing that may go beyond just ballast.

Originally Posted by Jonerz

A greater footprint and ROI for teams isn't likely to happen any time soon (again the fault of the ALMS not the ACO) so it is imperative the ALMS do something to sell itself to the Starworks and Gainscos of the world.

Hasn't it been rumored that Grand-Am subsidizes it's teams so that they show up? Ala Champ Car and IRL? That might be a bad rumor, but I've heard it before.

As for being butt-hurt about Petit, that's not the situation. There's been discussion about whether the ACO should have been kicked out of IMSA for months (years?) before the initial WEC schedule release. That schedule release and the WEC's comments about Sebring did drive home the point that the ACO has no intention of setting up a mutually beneficial relationship with the ALMS. It pretty much ended the debate for most fans. So, anyway, there have been issues for quite a while.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I will enthusiastically watch the WEC but I don't want the ALMS to suffer as a result of strengthening global sports car racing. There is no reason it should and if the LMS has hardcore fans the way the ALMS does I'm certain they feel the same way.

This is the difference, as a UK based fan I can watch a good British GT series, but to watch world class competition I'll have to hope an international series has a UK round. Over the years I've seen Audi/Panoz in FIA GT1, ALMS, ELMS, LMS and ILMC, I'm watching the same teams and drivers but they move to and from different series, hopefully the WEC will bring a little stability on that front.

[Jacques Rabbit]

Originally Posted by AGD

Hasn't it been rumored that Grand-Am subsidizes it's teams so that they show up? Ala Champ Car and IRL? That might be a bad rumor, but I've heard it before.

Yep. NASCAR has hawked out corporate partners to their Grand-Am teams in the past, such as Kodak with Doran or Crown Royal with MSR.

[Simmi]

Tweet from Murphy:

Based on an announcement embargoed until 0900 GMT, Murphy thinks ALMS could lose one, perhaps two 2012 LMPC entries.

What to make of this? One of the LMPC teams moving to Europe? Maybe the ELMS?

[JayBMS]

Intersport?

[AGD]

Genoa would be my guess if it is a situation where someone is moving to the ELMS. Granted, I'm not really sure if Genoa was ever "in" ALMS LMPC for 2012 anyway.

As for Intersport, there is a rumor that they are done too. That would not be shocking news at all.

Either way, it's LMPC so it's probably not a great loss either way.

[Simmi]

Genoa were the team that first came to mind for me too.

I'm assuming it's a new programme as you'd wouldn't put a European time embargo on an announcement that you were simply pulling out of the ALMS.

[Fogelhund]

To the WEC, not ELMS, yet more evidence of the predatory nature of the WEC, and how it is weakening the sport globally, instead of strengthening it.

[The Badger]

So a team decides to switch championships , cuz perhaps it suits their sponsor , preditory , your having a laugh !!!

There has been that much cribbing outta certain folk , I really dont care for the ALMS much anymore , when I have to listen to cranks . Maybe it would be for the best to collapse it , and let IMSA do their own thing ..... then we can have a real laugh ..... like we been doing for years anyway .

Ever see the movie Conspiracy theory !!! Oh , and next time you take your rubbish out , be careful of the murdering thug in your back yard ..... LMAO

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

So a team decides to switch championships , cuz perhaps it suits their sponsor , Preditory , your having a laugh !!!

Well, it depends. A team like Genoa will race where the money tells them to race. The money may be telling them to race in the WEC.

However, the question might why they want to race in the WEC? Race in the WEC because they want to race in the WEC? Ok, there might not be much that can be done about that unless you believe in Fogelhund's LMP1 only idea (and it's not a bad idea). Race in the WEC because that's the only way to get a Le Mans invite? Well, that's a different story. Let's face it, the ACO has essentially established a 25 and 8 rule at Le Mans with the WEC. The difference being that there are a lot more than 33 total spots and there may not even be as many as 8 at-large entries. I don't know how the IRL can get slammed for the 25/8 rule and not the ACO for a rule that's even more restrictive when they have partnership agreements with other "Le Mans" series. What a joke.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

So a team decides to switch championships , cuz perhaps it suits their sponsor , preditory , your having a laugh !!!

There has been that much cribbing outta certain folk , I really dont care for the ALMS much anymore , when I have to listen to cranks . Maybe it would be for the best to collapse it , and let IMSA do their own thing ..... then we can have a real laugh ..... like we been doing for years anyway .

Ever see the movie Conspiracy theory !!! Oh , and next time you take your rubbish out , be careful of the murdering thug in your back yard ..... LMAO

No, switching because the WEC is where you need to be to race at LM now.

I do agree with you, IMSA would be best to go it's own way, and I've been saying that for some time now. Then you can enjoy your laugh, and the repercussions that it has. I could explain them to you again, but then you would try and argue that the a spade was really a diamond.

As I've been saying repeatedly, the WEC in it's current format will weaken ELMS and ALMS. This shows it to be true. If you are happy about that, fair enough, enjoy.... for now.

[The Badger]

Is there an issue regarding loyalty these days ?

The ALMS cant even settle on a solid set of rules..... can you believe that ? Why would someone want to race in a series that cant settle a set of rules ?

This is laughable , to be honest !!!

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Why would someone want to race in a series that cant settle a set of rules ?

This is laughable , to be honest !!!

Wait, who are we talking about here? The ACO or the ALMS? I'll assume you're talking about the ALMS since this is the ALMS thread. In which case, yes, the presto-chango rulebook is shameful and harmful to growth. Merely kicking the ACO out would not guarantee stability, but it would be a good start towards putting together a logical and relevant rulebook. At least there would be no confusion as to whether IMSA should follow whatever nonsense the ACO draws up for the season or to follow conventional norms and common sense.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Is there an issue regarding loyalty these days ?

The ALMS cant even settle on a solid set of rules..... can you believe that ? Why would someone want to race in a series that cant settle a set of rules ?

This is laughable , to be honest !!!

To hold up the ALMS as an organization that has rules stability issues, then applaud the ACO at the same time... indeed laughable.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oh , and next time you take your rubbish out , be careful of the murdering thug in your back yard ..... LMAO

What?

Chris

[AGD]

So here are the details to the earlier rumor about ALMS money headed to the WEC.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-9200.html

EDIT: I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have on the ALMS. I suspect CORE will be back in LMPC regardless. With two cars? I don't know. As for Genoa, I guess it depends on what Eric Lux wants to do if he is bringing money. I'm sure there are other pay drivers who may want in ALMS LMPC.

Still, 25/8. The issue remains the same. Perhaps the Greaves trio would have been an ALMS trio if they thought they could get a Le Mans entry through ALMS participation.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

What?

Chris

That one passed me by too......???

Mr B, you appear to have ruffled a few feathers with your posts on this thread. I've deleted the abbreviated expletives which dodged the autocensor (you know the rules). I don't think you've made any 'personal' attacks on fellow members, and you are giving your opinion on the state of play in the ALMS but......easy does it. Thank you.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

To hold up the ALMS as an organization that has rules stability issues, then applaud the ACO at the same time... indeed laughable.

At least the ACO run the rules that they publish ..... the ALMS hasnt run to ACO rules for years , so Its better to go your own way I feel , as you have done that anyway .

But then we will have the cribbers , who cant get into Le Mans anymore , cuz their car isnt ACO/Fia legal , wont we .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

What?

Chris

Conspiricy theory , thug in the back yard ...... meaning paranoid that someone is planning something sinister . Fogelhund , sounds like he thinks the ACO are being sinister with his predatory comments , and some kinda conspiricy going on .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

But then we will have the cribbers , who cant get into Le Mans anymore , cuz their car isnt ACO/Fia legal , wont we .

If someone runs in a non-Le Mans sanctioned series and runs a non-ACO type car, well, what reason would they have to justify getting an invite? I don't think that is a problem.

The problem is when there are teams with ACO cars and who run full-time in a Le Mans series who do not even have a prayer of getting an entry. That's not only a problem, but it is reality for ALMS and ELMS teams. Even the ELMS auto-invites are becoming more conditional it seems. I don't know anything about the future of ALMS LM auto-invites. I don't think I've heard anything one way or another about that.

[The Badger]

Im sure the situation regarding auto invites will remain the same .

Its also the same for ELMS/LMS teams , many of those dont get in either , and many dont deserve a place in the biggest sportscar race in the world .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Its also the same for ELMS/LMS teams , many of those dont get in either , and many dont deserve a place in the biggest sportscar race in the world .

How do you know? Take Greaves for example. Their ELMS squad is stronger than their WEC squad. Ok, they have multiple invites so they'll be ok, but what about others? We still don't know what some/most of the front running ELMS LMP2 teams from 2011 will be doing next year. We don't know which GTE-Pro teams will show up in both ELMS and WEC, but there could be more quality teams in ELMS than WEC. That was certainly the case with the ILMC. The balance may very well have been different if the Le Mans entry situation was different. It's possible that professional teams with continental sponsorship will remain in the LMSes while the WEC stays mostly for amateur sugar daddies. That's to be seen. In the case of the ELMS, it's to be seen if it will even make the full 2012 schedule.

As for the auto-invites, I'm not assuming anything. The nature of the ELMS auto-invites has changed a bit I think (arguably the change could be to the benefit of the ELMS, but not beneficial to the teams). As far as the ALMS goes, I'm not assuming anything when it comes to how the ACO treats it. I would think that auto-invites are part of their contract, but who knows.

[The Badger]

For example ..... take WR , a small team , with a small budget and a fighting spirit like a Lion . Do you , after their performance over the last 5 years , think they deserve an entry .

I think their a great little team and love to see them there , if their act is up to it . If your act isnt up to it , dont expect much .

Greaves have earned both their entries , in accordance with rules laid down before last season , I have no issue with that .

The car (WR) hasnt finished a race , so im my opinion it doesnt deserve to get in .

To be honest , I dont mind the fact that the ELMS may drop a little in quality , if what we are getting at the end of the day is an International Sportscar Championship . Let the ELMS , ALMS and whatever other LMS series pops up be a feeder series for the big game .

In the days of Group C , there was very little interest in a world championship coming outta the States . They stayed at home with their series , and some came out to play for Le Mans , no more .

So whats new ..... American teams still show little interest in a world championship , and are still staying at home bar Le Mans ..... partial interest in last years ILMC . So whats changed in 25 years , nothing ?

Isnt a world championship what we all want ?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Conspiricy theory , thug in the back yard ...... meaning paranoid that someone is planning something sinister . Fogelhund , sounds like he thinks the ACO are being sinister with his predatory comments , and some kinda conspiricy going on .

Conspiracy, that is your words, and imagination, I have not said such a thing.

Yes, the WEC has been created as a direct competitor to the ELMS and ALMS. That is not a constructive way to build your genre. It isn't sinister, it is stupid.

I don't think we are too far apart in our views, just we draw different conclusions from the same reality. Would you not agree that the WEC is a direct competitor to ELMS and ALMS? You think that is fine, I think it is stupid.