ICAC Inquiry, Well Maybe!

[Oldtony]

Sydney is a very picky and sophisticated market. Every form of showbiz or sport has problems getting a crowd there unless it is something VERY special, or very new.
Even more than the difficulty in getting a market is the difficulty in maintaining support. Teams, or games, just don't build the fan loyalty that they do elsewhere. Sydney is always looking for the next big thing.
Given that the problem for V8SC in the Sydney Market is that there is rarely anything about it you could call the "next big thing".
Homebush itself was new, but the gloss has warn off that now.

Pecky, and other TC fan club members will probably not like me for saying this but I have a feeling that Sydney is indicative of the fact that the public is getting bored with the same 28 cars, the same 28 drivers, and virtually the same winners.

Has V8SC just about reached its use by date with the punters, and more importantly the people paying all the bills?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

How would that be, get millions of tax payers money with bogus financial benefit statements ???? Didn't TC blame the ARDC for the poor attendance at the Eastern Creek round and use it as an excuse to can the round ???? From what I could see on the telly 3/4 of the Grandstands at Homebush were empty !!!!!

I think they are flogging a dead horse, Sydneysiders just don't appear to be interested in the V8's

No argument Trev, BUT my interest is wider than just Homebush, specifically in what happened in WA (my heritage) where V8SA gets a fee from the State Govt, WA Tourism do the promotion & the WASCC run the event (lots of club labour for $nil/zilch) - funny that, no one is talking, exactly how well did the event do v budget?

Posting on the #1 WA motorsport site (www.speedwest.net), I've suggested the WASCC have a responsibility to WA motorsport beyond their current membership to let WA taxpayers in on the secret.
If I am charitable, I'd suggest the arrangement with Coch0 et al precludes any comment , if not so charitable then a question in the House seems the only way to know what is going on in year #1 of a 5 year year contract.


Will the mushroom treatment be successful?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Pecky, and other TC fan club members will probably not like me for saying this but I have a feeling that Sydney is indicative of the fact that the public is getting bored with the same 28 cars, the same 28 drivers, and virtually the same winners.

Has V8SC just about reached its use by date with the punters, and more importantly the people paying all the bills?

no actully i agree. its almost time for a new formula, not sure what that is. maybe COTF is the savoiur. Not sure

Nows heres the point, if i am a TC fan and we agree, where does that leave you?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Well to quote an example using F1 the 1995 F1GP was held in Adelaide in November as the final round of the 1995 season followed by the first Albert Park GP in March as the first round of the 1996 season.

If F1 can do it then why cant the V8's??

We all love our racing, some classes more than others, but you can't be serious, comparing the GP to a V8 Supercar race?

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

I think they are flogging a dead horse, Sydneysiders just don't appear to be interested in the V8's

Not so much V8's or car racing in general. An event, regardless of what, is supposed to add to the community, town or city. Something they can be excited and proud of. I'm certain, the general population of Sydney can see how full of you know what the "SYDNEY 500" truly is. And they have every justification to be cynical.

Originally Posted by eduardo1

The problem is that you can't fit a lot more people into the venue.

If you've observed that, I'm assuming you're not involved with the event. Then, does this mean the people involved with setting up the event and talking it up, were always full of it? Can this be used as conclusive proof that they are? Derision is justified?

Originally Posted by eduardo1

But the biggest costs are pretty well fixed and they can't afford to skimp on their music acts because that's the key selling point in their advertising.

Wtf is this? Aren't "they" promoting a "car race"?

Originally Posted by eduardo1

You're right about Oran Park - it always pulled a crowed of over 30, 000, often closer to 40,000. But it was a unique circuit - great location in the V8 heartland, brilliant viewing all over the circuit. There's not a better viewing circuit in the country.

Far SW Sydney is V8 heartland? Since when? EC is not that much of a trip from SW Sydney.

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

I understand that the Oran Park round pulled OK crowds. But when you look at it for a city of over 4 Million people 40,000 crowd is not that great.

How much would you consider great? 40K is outstanding I reckon. Particularly since it seems a loyal audience. 15-20K is amazing for Mallala! I'm assuming you've been that way. These attendances, I don't think, are truly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Fair point Trev & Pecky - even OP's crowds not THAT great in a city the size of Sydney. Then again, I'm not convinced that Sydney draws strong crowds on a regular basis for other sporting events - maybe it's a cultural thing?

Like with Trev Campbell, I'm asking you, what is a decent crowd then?

[peckstar]

f1 champ, your post is too broad to reply to

but i would suggest that a good crowd is a about half a million, on tv in 5 major cities, but at the track it depends if it is a street race or a permanent track.

But ideally they want enough to cover costs, which possibly the Sydney 500 is not doing currently

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Nows heres the point, if i am a TC fan and we agree, where does that leave you?

Leaves me thinking that you can see logic. I apologise for any past misjudgement.
An advantage that touring car racing of earlier times had was thar every couple of years someone discovered a new widget. Cortinas and Minis were replaced by GT Falcons and Monaros, then Toranas, Chargers, Commodores and Falcons of varying body shapes, RX7s, Skylines, Sierras BMWs etc. Each season there was always something new to look at and love or hate. Nowadays it is very dificult to see the difference in the cars over the last 10 years. And if anything COF is going to make that rend even more entrenched.
Got any suggestions for that new formula Pecky?

I note the talk about crowd sizes v population for various venues. I have tried researching a numder of past crowd sizes and don't seem to come up with any reliable information. A few promoters claims occaisionaly, but nor reliable tabulation. Anypne have any idea where these may be archived?
By the way, anchient history I know, but Warwick Farm used to pull crowds estimated at 30,000 to 50,000 depending on who was talking to the reporter. That was in the city when the population was less than half what it is now.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Leaves me thinking that you can see logic. I apologise for any past misjudgement.

you better go back and re-evaluate ant previous posts based on that, it will explode your mind

[v8man]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Leaves me thinking that you can see logic. I apologise for any past misjudgement.
An advantage that touring car racing of earlier times had was thar every couple of years someone discovered a new widget. Cortinas and Minis were replaced by GT Falcons and Monaros, then Toranas, Chargers, Commodores and Falcons of varying body shapes, RX7s, Skylines, Sierras BMWs etc. Each season there was always something new to look at and love or hate. Nowadays it is very dificult to see the difference in the cars over the last 10 years. And if anything COF is going to make that rend even more entrenched.
Got any suggestions for that new formula Pecky?

I think you have the answer with this quote and your previous quote about the same 28 cars and drivers, back in the old days Sydney always had privateers racing and they sometimes beat the big boys and this is what drew the people of Sydney to the races.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Like with Trev Campbell, I'm asking you, what is a decent crowd then?

Well, you could start with Barbagallo - further out than Oran Park, worst road infrastructure than OP (sounds impossible I know but it's the case) and a smaller city too far away from other main population areas for other than locals to go. They've had to literally shut the gates there before now - I can remember being there only a few years ago with a Sunday crowd of 56K, gates shut and the joint was visibly packed.

Then there's Hidden Valley which pulls good crowds - I seem to recall Sunday crowds of 40K odd there. Then there's Townsville and QR which in smaller catchments have pulled similar crowds to Oran Park's best.

Add to that the special events such as Bathurst (nearly double Oran Park), Clipsal 500 (more than double Oran Park) then I guess you start to get the idea.

Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old days of the Hang Ten 400 at Sandown and claimed crowd numbers of 80K on race day.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Pecky, and other TC fan club members will probably not like me for saying this but I have a feeling that Sydney is indicative of the fact that the public is getting bored with the same 28 cars, the same 28 drivers, and virtually the same winners.

Has V8SC just about reached its use by date with the punters, and more importantly the people paying all the bills?

That could be true and maybe V8supercar should abandon COtF and go with a GT category that could offer Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Viper, Aston, Ford, Chevy, Audi, Merc, BMW and others rather than trying to get Hyundai to join commodore and Falcon in the current circus.........complete lack of vision from those controlling motorsport in OZ.

[peckstar]

Bluesport, i guess we will find that out in a few weeks, when those cars run at bathurst,

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Bluesport, i guess we will find that out in a few weeks, when those cars run at bathurst,

Thanks for not blasting me for the comment. COtF is a "major change" so why not take the opportunity to have a proper "major change" and embrace a category that will most likely bring in the manufacturers that the current category is seeking........little V8supercars trying to tell big manufacturers what they should have, but bloodywell don't want, is a classic case of "the tail trying to wag the dog".

[peckstar]

im not sure v8's is seeking those categories, im not sure the people are seeking those categories.

if they are seeking those cars, then they will go to the 12 hour race. but i think we both know they wont go to watch.

[Oldtony]

The point is it is not just about the cars anymore.
V8SC has successfully built the image that they are the premier category with all the big name drivers, the cross promoted TV exposure and the "circus comes to town" image built around racing as an entertainment package. Very professional marketing job, but the worry is that maybe people are no longer responding to the core product. The sizzle is supporting a sausage that is not as tasty to the consumer.
Don't know if the answer is GT. Maybe they have the glamour but are looked upon as being a bit upmarket for the average punter. And the current organisers of the B12 can't get an entry list out because of holidays, while the bulk of the local GT cars are not featuring in the big event of the year because they want to be the support act at Clipsal.
I really can't see CoTF being the answer as it perpetuates the "all the same car" image.
What I can see is that unless someone comes up with a magic bullet the support for motor racing as a full time professional sport/entertainment package will erode very quickly.

[bluesport]

GT cars may be upmarket but they appeal to motorsport enthusiasts.........the most sold car in Australia is now the Mazda 3 so people are moving away from commodore anyway and the Falcon's sales have been greater in decline for some time.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by bluesport

GT cars may be upmarket but they appeal to motorsport enthusiasts.........the most sold car in Australia is now the Mazda 3 so people are moving away from commodore anyway and the Falcon's sales have been greater in decline for some time.

Certainly GT appeals to us enthusiasts, but do they appeal to a huge mass market in the sports entertainment market?
Agreed on the old Falcon Holden thing being dead, but does racing Mazda 3s, Toyota Corolla, Hyundai I30s, Holden Cruze, Ford Focus, VW Golf etc. sound like mass entertainment?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Certainly GT appeals to us enthusiasts, but do they appeal to a huge mass market in the sports entertainment market?
Agreed on the old Falcon Holden thing being dead, but does racing Mazda 3s, Toyota Corolla, Hyundai I30s, Holden Cruze, Ford Focus, VW Golf etc. sound like mass entertainment?

No it doesn't, that's the point I was trying to make. But if people are turning away from commodores we may as well ditch them and race something interesting like an Audi or Lambo. Ford and GM supporters can get their fix from Mustangs, Chevies and Ford GTs.

[peckstar]

all i can say is thank goodness Bluesport is not in charge of motorsport in Australia.

He would kill the industry in one year

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Well, you could start with Barbagallo - further out than Oran Park, worst road infrastructure than OP (sounds impossible I know but it's the case) and a smaller city too far away from other main population areas for other than locals to go. They've had to literally shut the gates there before now - I can remember being there only a few years ago with a Sunday crowd of 56K, gates shut and the joint was visibly packed.

Then there's Hidden Valley which pulls good crowds - I seem to recall Sunday crowds of 40K odd there. Then there's Townsville and QR which in smaller catchments have pulled similar crowds to Oran Park's best.

Add to that the special events such as Bathurst (nearly double Oran Park), Clipsal 500 (more than double Oran Park) then I guess you start to get the idea.
Hell, I'm old enough to remember the old days of the Hang Ten 400 at Sandown and claimed crowd numbers of 80K on race day.

Just done some rough calculations, you wouldn't have been happy unless 147,000 turned up to OP. Since, in Sydney, there's also EC, maybe, 147,000 between the two of them. There's no way that many people are going to turn up for a ATCC/V8 race, when 4 people turn up to a Shannons/state meet. In any context, 40,000 is alot of people turning up to a domestic car race. Motor racing isn't that popular in Australia, it lives as a "niche" sport. Completely unreasonable to expect a % of a population to turn up be universal. There are many factors involved as to why people do or don't go, not all of them may even be known. It's clear to me those factors haven't been taken into account regarding the Sydney 500. 40,000 at OP? Out-freakin-stan-ding!

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

all i can say is thank goodness Bluesport is not in charge of motorsport in Australia.

He would kill the industry in one year

I'd revive it!!!

[peckstar]

after you have killed it. Whats your plan B?

The series is far from dead, its just struggling in Sydney.

I think one of its key problems is that it is too expensive to attend

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by peckstar

all i can say is thank goodness Bluesport is not in charge of motorsport in Australia.

He would kill the industry in one year

Ah but would he;

Lets say rather than just running GT as the premier category, it was modified for the Aussie audience. Make it a category requirement that there are at least a couple of Corvettes, a couple of Camaro's, a couple of Mustangs and a couple of GT40's. Also bring back the Monaro & someone shove a stick up Ford Aust to bring out an equivalent GT spec muscle car.

Now you have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Mercedes, Chev, Ford, Holden, Lotus, Nissan GTR, etc; **** I reckon the worst marketer in the world could market that!

[Oldtony]

But ff1champ, motor racing has in the past attracted much larger crowds as a percentage of population.
Here in Queensland both Lakeside and SPIR have been packed for both Tasman and ATCC rounds. Kieth Williams used to claim 60,000 at SPIR in those days and there were a couple of meetings when I was there when it certainly looked about the number. The one race ATCC at Lakeside that Pete G won in the Cortina was packed like sardines.
Nowadays it seems to take counting the crowd over three days, a gratis rock concert and spending a lot of government money to get the Indy crowds above the one day crowd numbers of the past, and that is drawing from more than double the population base.
I still say it is the core product that is going stale.
P.S Does Muscle car Masters still draw the massive turnout at EC?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Shane001

Ah but would he;

Lets say rather than just running GT as the premier category, it was modified for the Aussie audience. Make it a category requirement that there are at least a couple of Corvettes, a couple of Camaro's, a couple of Mustangs and a couple of GT40's. Also bring back the Monaro & someone shove a stick up Ford Aust to bring out an equivalent GT spec muscle car.

Now you have Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, Mercedes, Chev, Ford, Holden, Lotus, Nissan GTR, etc; **** I reckon the worst marketer in the world could market that!

yes Ross Palmer marketed that, it didnt really work then, nothing has changed

why would people go to it, what is off interest, how do we relate, how do we get passionate? Why would we be even interested

[Shane001]

Originally Posted by peckstar

yes Ross Palmer marketed that, it didnt really work then, nothing has changed

why would people go to it, what is off interest, how do we relate, how do we get passionate? Why would we be even interested

For the die hard Ford/Holden fans - a Monaro & equivalent Ford taking it to the European exotics.
For the die hard Ford/Holden fans - Chevs & US Fords.
For the car enthusiasts - lots of exotic machinery.
For the dreamers - lots of exotic machinery.
For the rich side of town - Ferraris, Lamborghinis, etc.
For everyone else - variety!

Do it right and there'd be something for just about any car/motorsport enthusiast.