IMSA DPi Discussion - Page 31

Coach Ep · 17 Jun 2016, 13:40 (Ref:3650949)

Sure, DPi could be 'merged' into P1 Privateer/Light but as far as I know the ACO will only allow manufacturers into P1 Hybrid so that would mean a big change as well (probably a bigger one than allowing 'dressed down' DPi into P2 to begin with).

BoP will take care of any substantial performance advantages - one of the few more popular common denominators between IMSA and ACO these days.

It's all becoming a bigger blurry mess by the minute anyway...

Fogelhund · 17 Jun 2016, 14:37 (Ref:3650961)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Sure, DPi could be 'merged' into P1 Privateer/Light but as far as I know the ACO will only allow manufacturers into P1 Hybrid so that would mean a big change as well (probably a bigger one than allowing 'dressed down' DPi into P2 to begin with).

BoP will take care of any substantial performance advantages - one of the few more popular common denominators between IMSA and ACO these days.

It's all becoming a bigger blurry mess by the minute anyway...

Is there a rule that states no manufacturers in LMP1-L?

chernaudi · 17 Jun 2016, 14:58 (Ref:3650969)

I think that the rule says that no actual full factory teams can be in LMP1 privateer. However, there seems to be an allowance for engine supply, as Toyota sold engines to Rebellion in 2014.

Deleted · 17 Jun 2016, 15:25 (Ref:3650982)

In nutshell:

LMP1 Hybrid
Factory + Privateer

LMP1 Non-Hybrid
Privateer

The "privateer" cars and engines can be either in-house or customer cars.

Anyway, regarding the "Alpines", I don't see the problem in them being in LMP2, they are just fake-badged Orecas anyway and I don't see Signatech/DC having any more backing or resources than regular moderately budgeted Oreca privateer teams. Of course, it will be insulting if/when that rebranded name will be allowed in LMP2 once the new spec-regs come into force and you are supposed to have only four marques there, but there you go.

Hopefully the grid will be so oversubscribed anyway that even if there was theoretical "DPi" requesting entry into LMP1 privateer and willing to make all the necessary adjustments, that ACO would just reject entry or throw them at the bottom of the reserves. I have no desire to see some fake performance balanced non-LMP1-sort-of-LMP2s in the LMP1 category just for the sake of it. Especially if the US teams would expect to be allowed in at Le Mans (in P1 privateer), but reversely the LMP1 privateers couldn't enter Daytona/Sebring/PLM because Scotty says no.

chernaudi · 17 Jun 2016, 15:38 (Ref:3650988)

The Alpine, Ligier and Morgan LMP2 deals are just branding (little more than a sticker and maybe some sponsorship for the parent maker of the cars in Onroak's case) on these cars, which is legal in LMP2 as long as they don't become factory teams. It's just cheap advertising for some car makers, basically.

carbsmith · 17 Jun 2016, 17:49 (Ref:3651029)

The current IMSA teams are not in house OEM factory teams, even if their equipment is partly created by OEM funded programs. I don't think it's an issue.

With the chassis carry over announced for LMP1-L, DPi does fit almost entirely inside it, the biggest mandatory modification would be the fuel flow sensor, and you would probably want to swap wings too. Getting anywhere near 830kg could be a problem though.

HORNDAWG · 17 Jun 2016, 18:15 (Ref:3651038)

Quote:

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The current IMSA teams are not in house OEM factory teams, even if their equipment is partly created by OEM funded programs. I don't think it's an issue.

With the chassis carry over announced for LMP1-L, DPi does fit almost entirely inside it, the biggest mandatory modification would be the fuel flow sensor, and you would probably want to swap wings too. Getting anywhere near 830kg could be a problem though.

Do not bring truth into the matter, after all, that is why they do not fit in P2 as they are werks teams by god!

L.P.

chernaudi · 17 Jun 2016, 18:39 (Ref:3651047)

There's a little bit of difference between just slapping a sticker on a car and selling customer engines to all comers who ask for them if you can ship them to your customers, vs what IMSA is trying to do.

And what IMSA is trying to do is allow (and, in fact, actively encourage) OEMs to design body kits for their cars (which, granted are subject to BOP), and other things that are just more than simply putting decals on a car built by someone else as a branding exercise, or selling engines.

No to mention the "target demographics" of ACO LMP2 vs IMSA DPI, one being a true privateer category with no or minimal direct factory involvement, vs one that's biased to being an all-professional category with overt factory assistance.

It's not Audi Sport, Porsche Motorsport, or Toyota Motorsport GmbH level, but it's still more than what's supposed to be in a private class. The relatively large amount of spending that Porsche and Acura/HPD did on their LMP2 programs in the mid-late 2000's is what drove this whole thing to begin with for the ACO.

In the end, I see this as a bunch of egos on both sides jockeying for power and prestige and we're also talking a rivalry between Jim France and the ACO that goes back to 1997 when IMSA adopted ACO/FIA regs for prototypes and GT1 cars instead of keeping IMSA as it was from 1993-97.

I had the feeling that from the start, things weren't gonna end well considering that the France family/NASCAR/ISC and the ACO never got along back then, and it seems that things haven't changed since 2013, either. There's fault on both sides in this rivalry that seems to have tainted the global LMP2 plans.

**joeb** · 17 Jun 2016, 19:07 (Ref:3651061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF110

There's basically no takers from full time IMSA to LM. Why is this such a big deal?

I was thinking about this today. ESM left IMSA to go full stock into WEC, Shank is there this year, and Fresh from Florida Racing (or whatever spirit of daytona is called today) will be going next year. Khrohn also takes a P2 car there but he runs in the ELMS normally insteasd of IMSA. But of the drivers currently in IMSA P2, many of them are represented at Le mans this year. The Taylors are with Corvette, Goosens and Daizel are there, Barbosa is there too.

FormulaFox · 17 Jun 2016, 19:31 (Ref:3651068)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And what IMSA is trying to do is allow (and, in fact, actively encourage) OEMs to design body kits for their cars (which, granted are subject to BOP), and other things that are just more than simply putting decals on a car built by someone else as a branding exercise, or selling engines.

More accurately, they want to FORCE that on anyone who doesn't want to run a spec P2. Want an OEM engine? You MUST run the bodykit.

I personally think it's ridiculous. They want the GM engine, let them just buy the GM engine.

Maelochs · 17 Jun 2016, 19:42 (Ref:3651070)

ESM left because it didn't find any advertising RoI with IMSA .... getting tequila Patron's name on the mini-series seemed a better route, and WEC allows Patron to be introduced to new markets (and gives Ed some slim chance of seeing a podium.)

Shank is living the dream; he is one of those guys turning a huge fortune into a tiny fortune through auto racing. He is not likely to win much in IMSA and certainly not at Le Mans, but he can Race at Le Mans---and to him the ride is worth price of the ticket.

Krohn also knows that if he drives in IMSA, his team loses; one simply can't go that slowly (or stay on track so rarely) and expect one's team to make up the difference in a three-hour race. In ELMS he can about hand with the other Pro-Ams. He is paying to play, and it is worth it to him ... but he'd like at least a passing chance at a podium himself.

The drivers go because, it is, after all, Le Mans. The drivers don't care about the ongoing feud between FIA-ACO and whichever U.S. body is trying to ruin sportscar racing; the drivers want to run in the big show, and add Le Mans starts to their palmares.

For most teams .... no reason to go. Their sponsors are U.S.-based so they cannot race in Europe; they can't get auto-invites; they cannot afford a car and crew just for Le Mans; the enormous cost would outweigh any potential business gains.

And in any case, Chip Ganassi is already there, the Taylors are there as drivers, Mazda plans (somehow) to compete there in the not-to-distant future .... which team is not on the grid there? Starworks can't even afford a P-class entry any more. AXR is pretty much a NASCAR subsidiary.

As Chernaudu hints, IMSA Wants more manufacturer involvement---in the form of advertising dollars. Chevy doesn't want to spend much money building its own car; it is totally happy selling crate engines and getting its name on things, why would it want to risk having its own team, which could lose, when it could have a handful of teams?

But that is very real factory involvement; Chevy pays its fees to be allowed to play in IMSA. I am sure Chevy also provides whatever engineering help it can, which Gibson will also do, I am sure; but Chevy only helps Chevy teams, so it is not a balanced playing field as it will be in WEC/ELMS.

Sure WTR and AXR aren't werks teams; however, they do benefit from links to a manufacture.

Mazda is a werks team.

FIA doesn't want Any manufacturer money going into P2. Manufacturer money might scare away the overly rich amateurs which FIA wants to fleece to let them race in P2. So no, AXR is not a werks team but is not comparable to say, Signatech.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In the end, I see this as a bunch of egos on both sides jockeying for power and prestige and we're also talking a rivalry between Jim France and the ACO that goes back to 1997 when IMSA adopted ACO/FIA regs for prototypes and GT1 cars instead of keeping IMSA as it was from 1993-97.

QFT

Deleted · 17 Jun 2016, 19:47 (Ref:3651071)

If the market for customer nonhybrid LMP1s existed and was made possible by the organizers (you know, I don't know, in ELMS wink wink).. and say Oreca had fleet of R-One/04s laying around ready for short term leasing much to the way like in LMP2 now, these American teams could just come to Europe and rent REAL LMP1 Privateer cars on one-off, one race basis. They could keep their DPi-sticker-whatevers in States and come to Europe, running their semi-OEM-supported pro teams with non spec engines, without restrictions, without massive costs due to it being single event. And most importantly as teams without fear of not gaining entry spot. Because as REAL 100% ACO LMP1s, ACO would gladly welcome them all in automatically, no questions asked.

MaskedRacer · 17 Jun 2016, 23:15 (Ref:3651132)

I still hold on to this fantasy that IMSA will deem the DPI cars won't be ready as soon as they think and that they will debut at Sebring in 2017. Thus making Daytona only GTLM/GTD/LMPC. Thus making a GTLM a favorite to take overall victory.

That would not be a bad thing if that happened! Consider it IMSA guys.

Deleted · 17 Jun 2016, 23:21 (Ref:3651136)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

I still hold on to this fantasy that IMSA will deem the DPI cars won't be ready as soon as they think and that they will debut at Sebring in 2017. Thus making Daytona only GTLM/GTD/LMPC. Thus making a GTLM a favorite to take overall victory.

That would not be a bad thing if that happened! Consider it IMSA guys.

Even if the said scenario occurred, it's infinitely more likely that they'll just allow the old dinosaur DPs to the race

(they'll probably do anyway, whatever they may claim now)

FormulaFox · 17 Jun 2016, 23:58 (Ref:3651141)

What'll happen if the DPis can't be ready in time is that everyone will be forced to run ACO bodywork.

Deleted · 18 Jun 2016, 00:08 (Ref:3651142)

I'm sure they'd still rebrand bodyless spec-Dallaras as "Cadillac DPi" and spec-Riley as "Mazda DPi" etc.

But anyway as they (the bare cars at the very least) have to be realistically ready for November test already I'm pretty sure there's eventually gonna be bulletin on imsa.com stating "for Roar Before 24 and Rolex 24 at Daytona only, DP type of vehicles will be permitted to race under force majeure waiver blah blah blah". But then they "accidentally" forgot to adjust them as crappy as the old 2016-LMP2s but rather speed them up to the pace of the 2017-P2-DPi-whatevers

Maelochs · 18 Jun 2016, 01:59 (Ref:3651154)

hadn't thought of that, but it is far from impossible, sadly .... 2017 Rolex has the same field as the 2016 Rolex, because none of the new cars were ready .... more than just bodywork, it'd be engine mounts, rear monocoque mods .... and the spec bodywork wouldn't fit back on over the various engines,. nor would the intakes line up.

That would be about the most fitting start to the next chapter in the "IMSA Redux" story.

MaskedRacer · 18 Jun 2016, 02:37 (Ref:3651158)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maelochs

hadn't thought of that, but it is far from impossible, sadly .... 2017 Rolex has the same field as the 2016 Rolex, because none of the new cars were ready .... more than just bodywork, it'd be engine mounts, rear monocoque mods .... and the spec bodywork wouldn't fit back on over the various engines,. nor would the intakes line up.

That would be about the most fitting start to the next chapter in the "IMSA Redux" story.

That is why just going with GTLM/GTD/LMPC only for Daytona is a good idea. Think about it. The lack of protos will be made up easily by teams chomping at the bit of a overall victory potential. Such as AF Corse and Aston Martin. Maybe Corvette will have a 3rd car for the Taylors. Ford might go with 3. Action Express could run Cadillacs in GTD. Shank/Pew can team up with another team in GTD easily too. Probably just the Mazda guys will miss out. LMPC can get a little bit of glory at the start with an overall pole run. Thats my theory at least. I think IMSA going through with this idea would make the 2017 Daytona 24 very mouth-watering.

Letting DPI debut at Sebring in March takes some of the time pressure off and it gives Daytona some extra appeal believe it or not.

HORNDAWG · 18 Jun 2016, 03:54 (Ref:3651171)

Sorry to rain on the parade, but the expected DPi(s) for 2017, which will be partnered with Dallara and Riley-Multimatic which are already well down the road to producing cars. Dallara has been wearing GM skin for awhile now and it is a fairly sure bet that there has been heavy collaboration since the announcement of DPi. Multimatic has been building the Mazda chassis for awhile now and I would think are apace with the 'base' cars production.

As to the notion that IMSA would not have their top class present at The 24hrs of Daytona, the season opener, is just mind boggling.

L.P.

Rcz · 18 Jun 2016, 07:23 (Ref:3651197)

Does this mean IMSA may get free of that stupid 4 chassis limit?

Does the HPD 04 continuing its development make sense now?!

MagVanisher · 18 Jun 2016, 09:08 (Ref:3651228)

So I heard the news that ACO won't allow IMSA teams to bring their DPi cars to Le Mans in 2017 unless they change it to spec, I wonder what's gonna happen now to the class now that they won't compete in the 24 hours with their machines unless they rent a LMP2 car from Europe?

Also, I wonder if ACO will make a compromise with the LMP1-L class when they integrate the DPi one? If that doesn't work, so be it.

BrentJackson · 18 Jun 2016, 18:22 (Ref:3651950)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcz

Does this mean IMSA may get free of that stupid 4 chassis limit?

They should, and the first calls to see if anybody wants to try should be to HPD, Coyote and Ginetta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rcz

Does the HPD 04 continuing its development make sense now?!

Doubt it. It's still built to 2016 rules.

FormulaFox · 18 Jun 2016, 19:19 (Ref:3652022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

So I heard the news that ACO won't allow IMSA teams to bring their DPi cars to Le Mans in 2017 unless they change it to spec, I wonder what's gonna happen now to the class now that they won't compete in the 24 hours with their machines unless they rent a LMP2 car from Europe?

If IMSA is smart, absolutely nothing.

carbsmith · 18 Jun 2016, 22:08 (Ref:3652257)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

They should, and the first calls to see if anybody wants to try should be to HPD, Coyote and Ginetta.

Jim France doesn't need to call himself to figure out Coyote can't design an LMP.

Can't imagine anyone wanting to buy an HPD or Ginetta considering what a disaster the ARX-04 and the LMP3 test were.

HORNDAWG · 19 Jun 2016, 01:46 (Ref:3652460)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

If IMSA is smart, absolutely nothing.

Yep, think that it will be pretty much just move forward with the program as is for IWSC.

L.P.

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