In Mourning...............

[SidewaysFeltham]

As Tata Motors, India finalise their purchase of two essentially British icon automotive brands, Jaguar and Land Rover, it is perhaps sobering to recall the ultimate fate of the remnants of the British motor industry.

To me, "The Jag" epitomised all that was wonderfully individual and innovative.

The development of the Jag Twin Cam straight six, during WW II came of age with the essentially strident XK120 in 1948.

Amazing longevity of the power plant was demonstrated when with minor revision, it continued in many applications for years right into the 1970s.

After Lord Stokes wrecked the UK automotive industry in creating his wonderkind, BL to which Sir Michael Edwardes finally administered the coupe de grace and John Egan headed up Jaguar as a private spin-out, the Jag's fortunes have been mixed.

In recent years, of course, the company has become moribund, simply acting as the then parent, Ford's luxury arm with Aston Martin. Land Rover was an uncomfortable sort of add-on, whilst Toyota and Mitsubishi stole their markets.

Probably, I have rather a soft spot for the marque since my late father ran Jags from the late 40s through the early 50s: and once I could, I also ran examples of the wonderfully advanced, for their time, MK I and II saloons as well as two E types and a 4.2 XJ6 in the early 70s.

With the sad passing of Sir Edmund Hillary, this week, I am reminded, vividly of HM the Queen's Coronation Year, when Hillary and Tensing conquered Everest: and Jags won at Le Mans.

To me, they were much happier days. It was a wonderfully evocative time to be British and a car nut!

One can only hope that Tata will exploit the true value of the Jaguar brand and its copious engineering archive of excellence and knowledge.

However, I doubt this and fear yet another Ford type exercise in Badge Engineering.

--------------------------------------R I P Jaguar Cars.---------------------------------

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

As Tata Motors, India finalise their purchase of two essentially British icon automotive brands, Jaguar and Land Rover, it is perhaps sobering to recall the ultimate fate of the remnants of the British motor industry.

To me, "The Jag" epitomised all that was wonderfully individual and innovative.

The development of the Jag Twin Cam straight six, during WW II came of age with the essentially strident XK120 in 1948.

Amazing longevity of the power plant was demonstrated when with minor revision, it continued in many applications for years right into the 1970s.

After Lord Stokes wrecked the UK automotive industry in creating his wonderkind, BL to which Sir Michael Edwardes finally administered the coupe de grace and John Egan headed up Jaguar as a private spin-out, the Jag's fortunes have been mixed.

In recent years, of course, the company has become moribund, simply acting as the then parent, Ford's luxury arm with Aston Martin. Land Rover was an uncomfortable sort of add-on, whilst Toyota and Mitsubishi stole their markets.

Probably, I have rather a soft spot for the marque since my late father ran Jags from the late 40s through the early 50s: and once I could, I also ran examples of the wonderfully advanced, for their time, MK I and II saloons as well as two E types and a 4.2 XJ6 in the early 70s.

With the sad passing of Sir Edmund Hillary, this week, I am reminded, vividly of HM the Queen's Coronation Year, when Hillary and Tensing conquered Everest: and Jags won at Le Mans.

To me, they were much happier days. It was a wonderfully evocative time to be British and a car nut!

One can only hope that Tata will exploit the true value of the Jaguar brand and its copious engineering archive of excellence and knowledge.

However, I doubt this and fear yet another Ford type exercise in Badge Engineering.

--------------------------------------R I P Jaguar Cars.---------------------------------

Have to agree....as one who labouriously cut out gaskets for a Mark VII engine build etc...I am truly worried that this fine name will be sullied

[thebear]

Rumor has it that Jaguar's famous hood ornament "The Leaper" will be replaced by GANESHA, the elephant.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Interesting that in the 30s when Bill Lyons was building mainly saloons using Standard engines and his cars were called SS, he used the famous leaping Jaguar as his rendition of the art deco style for bonnet (hood) ornamentation.

I guess at that time, he couldn't afford to commission the likes of Emil Galle, Renné Lalique et al to design one for him......................

It was the public who called his cars "Jaguars": and it stuck!

A leaping elephant: has a strange je ne c'est quoi.

Perhaps better suited to an Austin 1800??

[garcon]

This is what I can never understand about British motoring traditionalists. It seems they preferred the days under BL to the Jaguar of today.

In their misty eyed view, somehow an ugly, thirsty, slow, creaking, rusting, prehistoric hulk of a barge haphazardly assembled (when they weren't on strike) by a rabble of lazy, incompetent brummies (the XJS) was better than a gorgeous, sleak, well designed, quick, competitive and strong selling GT coupe (the new XK).

The mind boggles.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by garcon

a gorgeous, sleak, well designed, quick, competitive and strong selling GT coupe (the new XK).

Next you'll be saying a Land Rover shouldn't leak oil out or rain in, be uncomfortable and noisy or rust like there's no tomorrow. It's just not the British way.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by garcon

This is what I can never understand about British motoring traditionalists. It seems they preferred the days under BL to the Jaguar of today.

In their misty eyed view, somehow an ugly, thirsty, slow, creaking, rusting, prehistoric hulk of a barge haphazardly assembled (when they weren't on strike) by a rabble of lazy, incompetent brummies (the XJS) was better than a gorgeous, sleak, well designed, quick, competitive and strong selling GT coupe (the new XK).

The mind boggles.

Who said that?

The original XJ6 was the last of the Bill Lyons inspired cars: subsequently ruined by BL. Worth remembering that Jaguar became part of BMC, which was William Morris's (Lord Nuffield's) empire, which also created the Mini Cooper s, Austin Healey 3000 and MG marques.

As I owned one of the early XJs (1969 4.2) before BL ruined the range, like their dreadful makeover of the MkIIs, I can personally attest to the excellence of the original engineering.

Compared to the Mk X and 420G (both of which I drove quite a bit) and the S type which was a halfway stage, doing away with the cart sprung axles and using a derivative of the E Type rear end (I ran a 3.4 S Type for a bit and we used it as a tow car), the XJ6 was a revelation and epitomised Jag's slogan, Grace, Pace, Space.

Perhaps the most critical thing to remember is that from the XK120 onwards, Jags offered Ferrari type performance at affordable prices: and the saloons offered top-level performance comparitive to few saloons of their day: which is precisely why MK IIs did so well in racing.

Also remember that the concept of a twin OHC with hemispherical combustion chambers as a straight six was until the Wally Hassan/Bill Heynes inspired design, the purview of racing enginering and exotic road cars only.

Jag's trick was to make this engine road-reliable and affordable: which is why it enjoyed such significant longevity.

To compare today's "Jaguars" with the past is risible, since the majority are an hybrid of Ford standard components including US Ford Lincoln platforms at the top end and Ford Mondeo at the bottom

The E Type was very affordable, in its day and owed much to the D Type heritage - the midway stage being the XKSS which was simply a way for Jag to use up redundant D Type chassis and running gear. Only stopped when a fire at Brown's Lane destroyed all the jigs and parts.

I would further suggest that the current Ford XK is not truly accessible, financially, to many: the XK range and the E Types were: as were second user MK IIs: and without the horrendous parts cost and maintenance problems associated with running an elderly current XK.

That's how and why so many of us old farts could afford the sheer joy or owning and running many of these cars back in the 60s and early 70s.

http://www.designmuseum.org/design/jaguar

[thebear]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Next you'll be saying a Land Rover shouldn't leak oil out or rain in, be uncomfortable and noisy or rust like there's no tomorrow. It's just not the British way.

You will have to admit that "Rust" was invented by the Italians (old Cinzano signs) and used under license by the Germans and the English.

[garcon]

Sideways, I thought you were harking back to older days, and you are quite right of course. A great, enthusiast's response if I may say so.

However I don't subscribe to the doom merchant's idea that Jaguar is dead. I think there may be more scope for even more individual development, to build on the XK and (just launched) XF.

The XF has had some very favourable write ups in the motoring press, and I think that will help many to forgive the Hyundai front end design... and starting at £34k-ish it does gosome way towards the old ideal of quality motoring for sensible money. As a package, the XF undercuts anything equivalent from Germany.

I think the future for Jaguar is rosy. And I'm glad it is an automotive & engineering company that has bought them instead of a finance house.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by garcon

Sideways, I thought you were harking back to older days, and you are quite right of course. A great, enthusiast's response if I may say so.

Thanks, garcon: much appreciated.

My late father ran SS Jag saloons prewar (1930s). Somewhere I even have a photo of one with a gasbag on the top!

He than ran a MK V saloon in the late 40s and early 50s and then switched over to a MKVII saloon. It was the first car in which I went at 100 mph: over Bodmin Moor in the middle of the night. I can still remember the huge glowing Jaeger le Coultre instruments glowing weirdly from their blue lighting!

The MK VII and IX were really coachbuilt luxury cars, with hand finished burr walnut veneer cappings and dash, sumptuous Connolly leather and deep Wilton carpets. Wonderfully quiet and effortless and very heavy: girder chassis still, in those days. Remembering Moss and Maston Gregory et al used to circuit race them, squealing round corners with their tyres aflame.................

I went with Dad one day to Henleys, in North London, where he was leaving his car for a service (probably 1952). The foreman allowed us to oogle a black XK120 roadster, which an American movie star had brought over for his filming contract. (In those days -early 50s - 99% of Jaguar sports car production went to the US, so XKs were rare as hen's teeth!).

I fell instantly in love.

I do hope you are right about Jags retaining their individual style. That said, unless a Bill Lyons, Wally Hassan and Bill Heynes are behind the breed, I fear that like so many, it will become simply a prestige brand, with no single visionary steering the design and engineering.

[garcon]

One promising tidbit of info I heard is that Tata have recruited an Indian designer who has enormous respect in the industry and heads (or headed?) the auto design school at Coventry Uni (the best department of its type in the country).

As an aside, many years ago an old friend of mine turned down an Oxford place to go to Coventry under sponsorship by Austin Rover. I believe he's now at Landrover.... although he wouldn't admit to any involvement with the Freelander...

[SidewaysFeltham]

Let's hope he has some automotive soul.

Landrover too, of course was an iconic product:Freelander, yes Hm...........

My protogé runs a very busy European recovery company, which transports touring caravans backwards and forwards.

The number of Freelanders which overturn towing 'vans is awesome: even with the latest towing stabiliser bars fitted.

Dreadful things!

[Keith Graham]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

He than ran a MK V saloon in the late 40s and early 50s and then switched over to a MKVII saloon. It was the first car in which I went at 100 mph: over Bodmin Moor in the middle of the night. I can still remember the huge glowing Jaeger le Coultre instruments glowing weirdly from their blue lighting!

The MK VII and IX were really coachbuilt luxury cars, with hand finished burr walnut veneer cappings and dash, sumptuous Connolly leather and deep Wilton carpets. Wonderfully quiet and effortless and very heavy: girder chassis still, in those days.

I ran a 1953 black MK VII in 1968, as you say those blue/violet dash lights were startling, also i liked the two large speedo/tach dials where the pointers swept opposite ways and also the revs were exactly half the road speed eg: 3000/60mph 4000/80mph 5000/100mph and 5500/110mph , i think the red or orange line then started. Not a good car for maintenance though mine had 27, yes 27 grease nipples. There were even nipples on the gaiters which covered each rear set of springs. Those were the days!!!

[Amaroo Park]

Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham

As Tata Motors, India finalise their purchase of two essentially British icon automotive brands, Jaguar and Land Rover, it is perhaps sobering to recall the ultimate fate of the remnants of the British motor industry.

To me, "The Jag" epitomised all that was wonderfully individual and innovative.

The development of the Jag Twin Cam straight six, during WW II came of age with the essentially strident XK120 in 1948.

Amazing longevity of the power plant was demonstrated when with minor revision, it continued in many applications for years right into the 1970s.

After Lord Stokes wrecked the UK automotive industry in creating his wonderkind, BL to which Sir Michael Edwardes finally administered the coupe de grace and John Egan headed up Jaguar as a private spin-out, the Jag's fortunes have been mixed.

In recent years, of course, the company has become moribund, simply acting as the then parent, Ford's luxury arm with Aston Martin. Land Rover was an uncomfortable sort of add-on, whilst Toyota and Mitsubishi stole their markets.

Probably, I have rather a soft spot for the marque since my late father ran Jags from the late 40s through the early 50s: and once I could, I also ran examples of the wonderfully advanced, for their time, MK I and II saloons as well as two E types and a 4.2 XJ6 in the early 70s.

With the sad passing of Sir Edmund Hillary, this week, I am reminded, vividly of HM the Queen's Coronation Year, when Hillary and Tensing conquered Everest: and Jags won at Le Mans.

To me, they were much happier days. It was a wonderfully evocative time to be British and a car nut!

One can only hope that Tata will exploit the true value of the Jaguar brand and its copious engineering archive of excellence and knowledge.

However, I doubt this and fear yet another Ford type exercise in Badge Engineering.

--------------------------------------R I P Jaguar Cars.---------------------------------

Must say I have to agree with this. One wonders what Sir William would be making of all this.........

[johnh875]

I doubt he would be thrilled.

Interesting question though - is Jaguar better off in Ford's or Tata's ownership? Currently you would have to say Ford, but what about long-term?

[mountainstar]

Funny thing is Land Rover landed Ford a $1 billion profit last year.

[andy_b]

you cant blame Rajan Tata for bidding and going on his purchase of Tetley and Corus, he's not doing a bad job. The Tata name has been damaged by the City-Rover fiasco, where Rover doubled the price on a car that didnt even have rust-proofing (not required for India!)

So, the question really is a) Would you prefer Jaguar to die or b) Would you prefer Jaguar to be owned by Tata ....as they are the only options!

If you want someone to blame, blame Ford as they are the idiots who are selling the valuebale assets to keep the main brand alive. First AM, then Jaguar and Land Rover and if yesterday's Autoblog is to be believed, Volvo is next

[SidewaysFeltham]

If I'm brutally honest, I believe it "Died" many years ago.

It's very difficult, if not impossible, for any company to successfully undergo repeated transitions of ownership and retain something of the essential essence which made it unique in the first place.

And Jaguar after all, has undergone ownership changes from Bill Lyons to BMC; then BL; then as a spin-out under Egan: then Ford. And now Tata.

All that's really left is the name and the logo.

Ford, of course, are now retrenching like mad: once any conglomerate starts selling off profit centre assets like Land Rover it's the beginning of the end.

They have survived only on their financial services arm and the earnings from deep investments, using this to offset the vast annual losses they have generated, year-on-year.

They cannot survive much longer.

[SidewaysFeltham]

Originally Posted by Keith Graham

I ran a 1953 black MK VII in 1968, as you say those blue/violet dash lights were startling, also i liked the two large speedo/tach dials where the pointers swept opposite ways and also the revs were exactly half the road speed eg: 3000/60mph 4000/80mph 5000/100mph and 5500/110mph , i think the red or orange line then started. Not a good car for maintenance though mine had 27, yes 27 grease nipples. There were even nipples on the gaiters which covered each rear set of springs. Those were the days!!!

All cars, in those far off days, enjoyed zillions of grease nipples!

Every moving joint on the suspension, steering, prop shaft had them.

On all my cars from the 50s onwards, I spent many happy (??) hours, grovelling around under them covered with grease and oil and muck and bullets!

If properly maintained, then they would last almost for ever. The MK II Jags continued with this, even having grease nipples on each door hinge: i.e. two per door.

The introduction of self-sacrificial non-service joints meant that instead of greasing them, they had to be renewed, periodically.

From personal experience, many cars of the period were poorly maintained, once the original owner had sold them: this was particularly true of Jags.

Timing chain tensioners were the most ignored: you could hear a badly maintained Jag from 50 yards away!

Greasing was often poorly done as the nipples invariably filled with dust and a "Service" became merely a token: if fresh grease was blobbed on the outside of the nipple, that's how they were often left. The trick was to keep pumping grease until fresh clean grease emerged from around the bearing seals, driving out the old stuff and any foreign matter. Hard work with a hand-pumped gun: far easier with a high pressure garage gun!

To me this contrasts with for example, BMW's planned future: the user will not even be able to add lube oil or coolant! The engine will be sealed; totally, as will the rest of the drive train.

[Amaroo Park]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I doubt he would be thrilled.

Interesting question though - is Jaguar better off in Ford's or Tata's ownership? Currently you would have to say Ford, but what about long-term?

I would have to agree and say it would be better under Ford. Long term who knows