[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Going back to the OPs video evidence, we can perhaps see where the FIA are heading with this. Vid at bottom of article.

http://thef1times.com/news/display/03960

Thanks Marbot.

Video kind of says it all really.

I would love to see the result of the wheel being fired directly into a roll hoop. Kind of self defeating because the driver's head is in front of it, but it would be interesting to see if it was brushed off or not, it is a hell of a lot of energy to absorb in a direct impact!

[Marbot]

The canopies will obviously have the same issues that other types of racing car have with their windscreens or canopies. Visibilty in rain mixed with dirt, gravel and other things. Visibility at circuits where the sun is setting, etc, and so on.

[bjohnsonsmith]

What a bout windscreen/shield wipers, or has this been covered; if so sorry ?

[F50GTPlus]

Here is another stylized photoshop version of what an open wheeled F1 could look like while retaining the snorkle intake https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/315667_229384253787285_100001471352406_664891_1663666871_n.jpg

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by F50GTPlus

Here is another stylized photoshop version of what an open wheeled F1 could look like while retaining the snorkle intake https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/315667_229384253787285_100001471352406_664891_1663666871_n.jpg

That's an interesting bit of art work. Do you know who did it, as I can't quite read it?

[Richard C]

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but if the regulations allowed both closed and open cockpit in F1, which would the designers use? In short, I wonder if there are aero advantages that might outweigh the problems with adding them (wipers, weight, emergency egress system, and most likely some type of cooling system for the driver). It seems in the prototype world they seem to be gravitating toward closed cockpits even when they have a choice.

Richard

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by F50GTPlus

Here is another stylized photoshop version of what an open wheeled F1 could look like while retaining the snorkle intake https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/315667_229384253787285_100001471352406_664891_1663666871_n.jpg

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's an interesting bit of art work. Do you know who did it, as I can't quite read it?

Here is link to the source picture at a larger size, it also includes details of how it was done.

It won't allow a direct link but a largest image ca be seen by goingto the portfolio pace and the automotive renderings. Once you have the Ferrari on the slide show click top right to expand to largest size.

One observation I would make after the original "Wow that looks great", was where the will the engine go as the cockpit goes back a fair distance into where the engine normally lives

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Here is link to the source picture at a larger size, it also includes details of how it was done.

It won't allow a direct link but a largest image ca be seen by goingto the portfolio pace and the automotive renderings. Once you have the Ferrari on the slide show click top right to expand to largest size.

One observation I would make after the original "Wow that looks great", was where the will the engine go as the cockpit goes back a fair distance into where the engine normally lives

Thanks. I'm not too sure about the airbox, might create a lot of drag. Side airboxes like the Lotus '78/9 would be better, IMHO.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but if the regulations allowed both closed and open cockpit in F1, which would the designers use? In short, I wonder if there are aero advantages that might outweigh the problems with adding them (wipers, weight, emergency egress system, and most likely some type of cooling system for the driver). It seems in the prototype world they seem to be gravitating toward closed cockpits even when they have a choice.

Richard

I would think a closed cockpit is superior as it is predominately used wherever it is allowed i.e. prototypes.

[wnut]

"Perfect Storm" killed Wheldon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/16207130.stm

Seem to have heard this all before with Surtees etc.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seem to have heard this all before with Surtees etc.

Who hasn't been at the receiving end of lots of things coming together to make s**t happen? Maybe sometimes you just have to accept that some forms of motor racing are dangerous.

It's probable that neither Surtees nor Wheldon would have been killed had both of them been driving 'tin top' cars, but can we even be certain of that?

[NewYankee01]

this would make open wheelers diabolical to watch, there are the appeals of sportscars and single seaters, this has neither, youd just be watching a thin box go round that doesnt resemble a car. onboards would be crap itd get massively hot for the driver does that mean an f1 car would need windscreen wipers! itd be rubbish. one major question looms,why only now, there must be a reason this has never been tried before, i suppose all the safety devices we have now make it a more viable solution but unlike sportscars if the car stays upside down even with explosive bolts along the length of the canopy how else would the driver escape with a mighty strong carbon monocoque tightly surrounding him/her?

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

"Perfect Storm" killed Wheldon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/16207130.stm

Seem to have heard this all before with Surtees etc.

And yet you didn't hear about all the millions of people not killed because of all those imperfect storms happening all around you every day.

[wnut]

Front roll hoops now being tested

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99155

[JeremySmith]

Please, no no no !

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by wnut

Front roll hoops now being tested

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99155

The aero guys won't like them and how do they compare to steped noses in the ugly stakes.

[Richard C]

It would be interesting to know if they have defined any specific success/failure criteria for this. Clearly they have defined something, even if only a high level because they are shooting tires/wheels at high speed (and not small items such as the spring that hit Massa).

The Autosport article mentions that the flexing of the aerospace style canopy is a negative. I don't particularly see it that way. I think if you were to use a canopy, that it would have a targeted level of protection and that would have a resulting amount of expected deflection and you just factor that into the design so that it can deflect, but not impact the driver. The canopy deflection may also be absorbing energy while the all metal example is probably preserving lots of the energy.

When I first saw the image from the article, I thought it was to just have to tubes extend down from the existing rear hoop structure forward to each side of the driver, but above the outline of the helmet, but after watching the video, it is instead for a small hoop that sits directly in front of the driver (they have a helmet section situated behind the hoop in the FIA test). So the issue I see with this concept is that it may block large debris such as a tire, it doesn't solve other issues that you sometimes see. There is still plenty of room for small stuff to get in. You still have the potential for thing such as suspension components attached to wheel/uprights to reach into the cockpit (Senna scenario?) or even situations in which one car rides up onto another. This forward hoop concept would help some, but there is still plenty of room for another car to ride in the groove between a front and rear hoop on the drivers head. Lastly, it clearly blocks the drivers view. But this concept would not require complex closed cockpit removal and emergency egress methods. This type of forward hoop design MAY have saved Dan Wheldon's life but we will never know.

If they wanted to go down this path, I wonder if a hybrid approach would be better. Use a thick aerospace style material, but in a windscreen design (much in the same shape as this all metal structure they just tested), but then provide a metal hoop reinforcement (maybe not at thick as the hoop they show in the FIA test) at the edge of the windscreen. It may have some the same issues as above (intrusion from the side), but may prevent small objects such as the Massa scenario because it protects a larger "frontal" area as well as provide better visibility than the all metal approach.

Richard

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The thing that strikes me with regard to these deflection test, is that they haven't placed an airbox roll-over hoop/crash structure behind the helmet.

If you look at the video in the link above at 55-56 seconds, the tyre would in my view collide with the roll hoop.

The possibility of an object either being blocked and bouncing back downwards onto the driver/into the cockpit has to be considered as well.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

The thing that strikes me with regard to these deflection test, is that they haven't placed an airbox roll-over hoop/crash structure behind the helmet.

If you look at the video in the link above at 55-56 seconds, the tyre would in my view collide with the roll hoop.

The possibility of an object either being blocked and bouncing back downwards onto the driver/into the cockpit has to be considered as well.

I hear what you say but from a physics point of view the wheel has more chance of ripping the rear roll hoop apart than bouncing back the way it came to catch the driver. Most likely outcome would be deflecting the wheel higher (vertically).

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The aero guys won't like them and how do they compare to steped noses in the ugly stakes.

Compared to the noses?

Quite pretty actually!

Compared to mangled drivers?

Unspeakably beautiful!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

The thing that strikes me with regard to these deflection test, is that they haven't placed an airbox roll-over hoop/crash structure behind the helmet.

If you look at the video in the link above at 55-56 seconds, the tyre would in my view collide with the roll hoop.

The possibility of an object either being blocked and bouncing back downwards onto the driver/into the cockpit has to be considered as well.

I think you have a point there about airbox/roll hoop.

What has prompted this, I don't remember seeing an accident in a race recently, when a wheel was going straight for the drivers head?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think you have a point there about airbox/roll hoop.

What has prompted this, I don't remember seeing an accident in a race recently, when a wheel was going straight for the drivers head?

Henry Surtees

Warning Fatal

No need for the video link

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Henry Surtees

Warning Fatal

I'm well aware of that terrible incident, but are they that common?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm well aware of that terrible incident, but are they that common?

Leading into an accident with your face even if it is protected by a helmet
just seems intuitively wrong somehow.

Drivers who may have been saved by a frontal intrusion structure like the FIA is testing

Killed by wheels:
Surtees, Senna, Hoettinger, Spence
Killed by other objects:
Pryce, Stacey, David Smith
Killed by frontal cockpit intrusions:
Koinigg, Wheldon, Moore, Campos, Donohue, Cevert, Birrell, Hocking, Max Stewart, Hans-Georg Burger,
Harmed by frontal intrusion:
Massa, DaMatta, Brundle, Marko,

The above list is not exhaustive and based on what I can recall from a faulty memory, and I am sure some of the guys will add more drivers.
While some of the drivers would not have been saved, a lot more of the drivers would still be with us or have been uninjured if the FIA frontal roll hoop or canopy had been in place.

The event of being struck in the face in an open cockpit is however not rare no matter what some will have you believe.

[barnettracing]

So, if a cockpit cover/frontal bar structure is implemented by the FIA in F1 (not that I agree with them) do we all agree that they should be used in all open sports prototypes? Because if open cockpit is as dangerous as wnut leads us to believe then it isn't just single seaters.

What about 750 Formula, Radicals, the Caterham SP300.R, SPEED Series, FF1600, FVee, Formula Renault, F4. Everything would need to be overhauled.

What happened to Henry Surtees was very sad and shocking (partly due to his age). However, open cockpits have been a part of motor racing since its inception in the 1906 French Grand Prix (or wherever else you attribute the start of organised motorsport). Yes, it is fantastic that safety has improved from the good 'ol bad days. But, there is a limit. Despite the per miles driven bull****, I am more likely to be injured driving on the road than on the race track, even though on the racetrack I am taking hundreds of risks compared to standard motoring.

If we are to make all cars into homogenous vehicles than different forms/classes of motorsport become redundant. Risk is what makes people take part in motorsport (the same with extreme sports). If the Health and Safety brigade wrap us in cotton wool I'll find something else to go and do. Where does it stop? Maximum speed limits in certain, difficult corners? Please. Unlike the tone of some posters, racing drivers aren't forced into racing open wheel, open cockpit. They choose to. All racing is a choice. If you don't like it, don't do it. If it's too fast, use the bloody brake pedal, that's what is there for. Stop if you're really crapping yourself.

No one likes to see drivers killed however, despite the popularity of modern F1, I reckon that motorsport is less revered by the public as there is less skill involved. Drivers used to risk life and limb. Now, death and serious injury are less of a concern. Also, the safer we make the cars/circuits, the more risks the drivers will take. Open wheel racing has become ridiculous in terms of driving standards. There is no place nor need to bang wheels at 180mph. That is where the real danger is. Just look at what was happening at Las Vegas just before Wheldon's accident. People were racing like they were in karts. If there was more risk you would have to think about your actions before not after you committed them.

/Rant over.