[BTCC] btcc round 19,20 and 21 knockhill 2017

[richrad smith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Rory Butcher on pole for race 3, lol. I can't see a win happening with all those RWD cars about but that's fun.

He ended up starting Race 3 2nd on grid after an amendment.

[luckn002]

Brake failure the cause of Burns' crash. Sounds like a lot of damage going by their press release

[crmalcolm]

One thing that strikes me about the Subaru situation is that people's views appear to be expressed in a hero vs villain mindset.

This is exactly what Plato intended when he made the comments:

'The plan is to blow everybody’s doors off. We will without doubt have a brilliant chance of winning the championship this year [...] The car’s a lot quicker, and a lot lighter [...] I am now totally at one with rear wheel drive after spending most of my career in front wheel drive machines. We will have the best package out there'

Those that see Plato as a hero will want those predictions to pan out, those that see him as a villain will have been worried and glad to see that it didn't happen.

However it is organised, someone will always have the best package. In the past that has been Honda, at times it was VXR, sometimes BMW.
The concern must be that the best package on the grid is defined by the car alone, and that others are unable to match that through engineering or racecraft. If so, there is little for others to race for.

I think all anyone in the pitlane wants is a playing field that they can compete fairly on, if the Subaru becomes unbeatable (aside from R3 reverse grids) then something will need to be done.
At the moment though, a BMW leads the championship, a Honda is third and a Toyota in fifth - all capable of taking the lead in a single weekend.

In previous seasons we have seen Subaru and Ford dominate the later events when they go into a weekend ballast free.
IMHO, the title will be decided on who carries ballast in qualifying best, and makes the most of their difficult weekends. Not who can go into qualifying with little/no ballast and make a bit of hay while the sun shines.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by richrad smith

3 top 10 finishes with NO power!! aye ok then

Good thing I never implied it was slow round the corners! I believe those are utilised in BTCC quite heavily!

Close one there, we almost pretended that the Honda and Chevy weren't being out dragged by everything else!

I do think it's pretty funny (and almost cute) that when you suggest that a Honda may not have the advantage in absolutely every area, people will argue against it, ignoring what you say completely. How dare anyone suggest the Honda is not dominant at everything!

[Craner Curves]

Something saddened me at Knockhill that I don't think many others present on the day will have noticed. I've been to every Knockhill meeting since Triple Eight debuted and I have never seen them in the back row of the paddock before. I know it's a hollow shell of the team of the past, but it was still a sobering reminder of how the mighty have fallen and are unlikely to ever rise again.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Something saddened me at Knockhill that I don't think many others present on the day will have noticed. I've been to every Knockhill meeting since Triple Eight debuted and I have never seen them in the back row of the paddock before. I know it's a hollow shell of the team of the past, but it was still a sobering reminder of how the mighty have fallen and are unlikely to ever rise again.

I'm not a 888 fan, but I know what you mean. Imagine seeing the Prodrive or RML names lingering in the back. Part of me thinks it'd been better if BMR had switched the 'team branding' around, making 888 the Subaru works effort and using the BMR name to run the MG's on the shoe string budget, rather than having the pedigree laid to waste.

[Rob877]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Something saddened me at Knockhill that I don't think many others present on the day will have noticed. I've been to every Knockhill meeting since Triple Eight debuted and I have never seen them in the back row of the paddock before. I know it's a hollow shell of the team of the past, but it was still a sobering reminder of how the mighty have fallen and are unlikely to ever rise again.

I noticed that too, also right at the end of that back row as well. It is sad to see, but I guess credit must be given to the other teams who can make things work without a big manufacturer propping them up. Maybe a complete reset is what is needed so they can change their business model as the present one is clearly not working.

[Sodemo]

Both Silverstone and Brands GP will be tracks where the Honda will excel at, so I wouldnt count them out yet. Its looking pretty ominous though with Subaru now looking pretty strong, i'd put a tenner on Sutton taking the title.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Something saddened me at Knockhill that I don't think many others present on the day will have noticed. I've been to every Knockhill meeting since Triple Eight debuted and I have never seen them in the back row of the paddock before. I know it's a hollow shell of the team of the past, but it was still a sobering reminder of how the mighty have fallen and are unlikely to ever rise again.

It's a real shame.

They've had an accident strewn season too, which definitely doesn't help. Bent chassis and any development budget put towards rebuilding. Then the drivers, well especially Taylor-Smith, seem to be doing "do-or-die" moves to try and make up for things. Sad to see Cook fade in Race 2.

Hopefully, they'll have a successful Silverstone round and we'll all call it a comback, like Plato at Knockhill.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Both Silverstone and Brands GP will be tracks where the Honda will excel at, so I wouldnt count them out yet. Its looking pretty ominous though with Subaru now looking pretty strong, i'd put a tenner on Sutton taking the title.

I agree that it is wrong to count them out, but nothing about Silverstone suits Honda. Simple corners, with three straights where the majority of the lap is at full throttle means that those with the highest power will do well. It's a power track, not a handling one.

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The only thing slower than the Honda is Newsham. No power what so ever.

He has plenty of power, the same as all other TOCA engines. He also had plenty of understeer and wheelspin on corner exit, creating an illusion.

Poor Dave really had to hustle that chassis all day, well done.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I agree that it is wrong to count them out, but nothing about Silverstone suits Honda. Simple corners, with three straights where the majority of the lap is at full throttle means that those with the highest power will do well. It's a power track, not a handling one.

However that hasn't stopped Honda doing well there before. Its also crucially not a "traction circuit" so the RWD cars won't be jumping out of corners. On paper, Thruxton is a power circuit, but Honda always get podiums etc.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by luckn002

Brake failure the cause of Burns' crash. Sounds like a lot of damage going by their press release

Not surprised, he didn't seem to slow down at all for the corner, so I knew it must have been something like that. I'm just glad he got out of it ok

[luckn002]

Been mentioned many times on this forum:

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2017...-contact-year/

and must say I agree

[Sodemo]

The Honda drivers sure do like to tap tap tap the rear of the cars they are trying to overtake, I think Shedden more so than Neal.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

However that hasn't stopped Honda doing well there before. Its also crucially not a "traction circuit" so the RWD cars won't be jumping out of corners. On paper, Thruxton is a power circuit, but Honda always get podiums etc.

Thruxton is more of a balance circuit. Very high speed, but practically none of it is straight - some part of the car is straining. Historically Honda have excelled there.

[Akrapovic]

I agree in general, but didn't think that incident was a bad one. Looking at it again, Collards front wheel makes contact with Sheddens rear wheel on the exit. He was really trying to hang onto a position that was lost. It wasn't a smack on the rear bumper as is being suggested.

I dunno, in the grand scheme of touring car racing, that one never even registered. It wasn't like Oulton Park were he lamped the back of another car.

[Alfisti]

I can't blame the Honda for that. The worst driving I saw all weekend was the Porsche being punted by a guy half in front just running it out of road. That was worthy of some proper fisticuffs afterwards in my books.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

That is what leads to a one make series. You might end up getting 32 Levorgs.

Failing memory probably, but there was a time that pretty much all the cars were whale tail Sierras? Was that design or accident? Or was it that nowt else could compete? Or indeed am I remembering wrongly?!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Failing memory probably, but there was a time that pretty much all the cars were whale tail Sierras? Was that design or accident? Or was it that nowt else could compete? Or indeed am I remembering wrongly?!

The RS500 became the 'ideal' Grp A car, and there was little else that could match it (partly due to homologation requirements). It dominated the class, before BTCC moved away from Grp A and into Super Tourers.

Perhaps we may (and it is still not certain) see BMW/Subaru become the dominant NGTC car set up, and due to the lack of RWD cars on the market that would suit NGTC running, will be the case until TCR or a.n.other category emerges?

[CaptRustyNail]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

Something saddened me at Knockhill that I don't think many others present on the day will have noticed. I've been to every Knockhill meeting since Triple Eight debuted and I have never seen them in the back row of the paddock before. I know it's a hollow shell of the team of the past, but it was still a sobering reminder of how the mighty have fallen and are unlikely to ever rise again.

Maybe 888 will rise out of the flames, Phoenix style! stranger things have happened in this funny old world.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by CaptRustyNail

Maybe 888 will rise out of the flames, Phoenix style! stranger things have happened in this funny old world.

I guess it needs a buyer for that to happen. Currently being ran as Warren Scott's 'B' team, so I wouldn't expect them to be permitted to challenge BMR seriously. Any manufacturers wanting to fund a team in full?

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Any manufacturers wanting to fund a team in full?

What are the chances of any serious manufacturer wanting to fully fund a team that doesn't even have it's own facilities, and is based in a small corner of someone else's workshop.

Chances of 888 rising from the ashes are non-existent.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

What are the chances of any serious manufacturer wanting to fully fund a team that doesn't even have it's own facilities, and is based in a small corner of someone else's workshop.

Chances of 888 rising from the ashes are non-existent.

As soon as they sold their independence it was always likely. The only chance is for them, or BMR, to switch to a different championship.

[Alfisti]

Or a man with money to acquire it from Mr Scott.

However, said fictional man with money would be better off starting from scratch IMO. Knackered old MGs are worthless, and how many decent 888 staff are left? Any?