GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

highly doubtful fans will pay $300 for a grandstand ticket at our major events to watch TCR, thus all our major events will be no more

Of course not, TCR is a $20 for a nice day at Wakefiled or Mallala (Shannons Nationals) type of category.

$20 is a FAR more reasonable ticket price anyway!

You can have reasonable ticket prices when you are not trying to prop up a category owned by a capital firm and needing to squeeze every dollar for team REC income (to prop up cars and drivers that cost more to run than their actual market sponsorship value!).

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

But if a category is going to be the premier tin top category in the land then it has to be one of the fastest and with multiple other categories in Australia that will be quicker then TCR cannot be the premier category.

Of course not. Nobody was suggesting it would be.

It can however be a great category for manufacturers or dealers (or just amateur owner-drivers) to get involved with, a place where fans can cheer on cars they actually drive which are still on sale (unlike HSVs or FPVs) (Golf GTI, Civic Type R, Peugeot 308 GTI etc) and a MUCH needed stepping stone for Australian drivers into international front-wheel-drive touring car racing.

I feel like those who don't "get" front wheel drives hot hatch tend to the ones who are more skeptical of TCR. Let Top Gear reliving their youth remind you of why hot hatches are so much fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXZ0rlx-MFY -- do bear in mind that not all countries have dirt cheap fuel like Australia... running a gas guzzling 6 litre HSV in the UK is expensive in the extreme for instance, a luxury that is really not a sensible choice.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Of course not, TCR is a $20 for a nice day at Wakefiled or Mallala (Shannons Nationals) type of category.

$20 is a FAR more reasonable ticket price anyway!

You can have reasonable ticket prices when you are not trying to prop up a category owned by a capital firm and needing to squeeze every dollar for team REC income (to prop up cars and drivers that cost more to run than their actual market sponsorship value!).

Yep, you are right, $20 is reasonable because few want to attend and you need to be cheap

you can charge $300 when people want to attend and are prepared to pay more for prime spots

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The problem with MARC and NZV8 is they are still generic spaceframe cars just like COTFs. You can't attract manufacturers with generic spaceframe cars.



1. Yes that's the appeal.

2. So you don't buy the Audi, you buy the more reasonably priced JAS Motorsport Civic Type R!

So what happens the first time someone dies in a car....

There is a reason we have space frame cars.

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[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

What do they turn up for though? The names, drivers and racing? Or is it Robbie Williams.

I think you are placing to much value on a lap time to get people to attend an event

History shows its not robbie williams, he has never played bathurst or sunday at newcastle. However i acknowledge some people pay for the concert day, but you pay gen admin for that, not for a grandstand, about a quarter of the price

People come to watch the premier category racing in our land, which by result of it being the premier category has great drivers and names and racing. But TCR wont be the premier category, there are many categories faster than TCR

If people are interested in TCR they should attend Bathurst in about 3 weeks time. the production cars are much closer to TCR cars in speed than TCR are to Supercars.

TCR will take back bathurst 1000 lap times to 30 years ago, No one genuinely wants that apart from Supercar haters

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

TCR will take back bathurst 1000 lap times to 30 years ago, No one genuinely wants that apart from Supercar haters

^ Doesn't understand that TCR is a support category (and fun one at that).

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

So what happens the first time someone dies in a car....

Tell that to the WRC, there are far more obstacles to hit on rally stages (even trees and cliffs) and they still use production bodyshells....

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

^ Doesn't understand that TCR is a support category (and fun one at that).

Actually i said it was a support category to supercars, you quoted my posts that were debating people that said it should premier category

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

^ Doesn't understand that TCR is a support category (and fun one at that).

I think it is too expensive to be a full grid support category, unless manufacturer support is forthcoming. If it was my dollar I would buy a GT car to race instead.

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[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I think it is too expensive to be a full grid support category, unless manufacturer support is forthcoming. If it was my dollar I would buy a GT car to race instead.

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Gt4 has similar speed to a TCR car, similar price also (just adding in way of comparison)

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Tell that to the WRC, there are far more obstacles to hit on rally stages (even trees and cliffs) and they still use production bodyshells....

More obstacles but less concrete walls and far less chance of a tbone which is how the most serious and deadly accidents have happened most recently in Australia.

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[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by peckstar

History shows its not robbie williams, he has never played bathurst or sunday at newcastle. However i acknowledge some people pay for the concert day, but you pay gen admin for that, not for a grandstand, about a quarter of the price

Hasn't Newcastle only had one event? You might want to give is a couple of goes before using it as a yard stick.

The sharp decline of Homebush and the dependence on musical acts to drive public support is an example of concerns around sustainability of the large style events.

Originally Posted by peckstar

People come to watch the premier category racing in our land, which by result of it being the premier category has great drivers and names and racing. But TCR wont be the premier category, there are many categories faster than TCR

If people are interested in TCR they should attend Bathurst in about 3 weeks time. the production cars are much closer to TCR cars in speed than TCR are to Supercars.

TCR will take back bathurst 1000 lap times to 30 years ago, No one genuinely wants that apart from Supercar haters

I would challenge the notion that the public come to watch the premier category in the land - as opposed to the drivers, names and teams.

I also believe you are missing the point in regards to your connection to lap times , premier category and public support.

For example - NASCAR are not the fastest category in North America yet have the largest crowd support and would be deemed to be US Racing's premier category.

For Example - V8SC are not the fastest category in Australia in 2018 yet have the largest crowd support and would be deemed to be Australia's premier category.

If TCR brings in manufacturers, who contract the best teams (Penske, 888, BJR, Prodrive etc) who then pay the household drivers the best $$$ - where do you think the fans will go watch?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Hasn't Newcastle only had one event? You might want to give is a couple of goes before using it as a yard stick.

The sharp decline of Homebush and the dependence on musical acts to drive public support is an example of concerns around sustainability of the large style events.



I would challenge the notion that the public come to watch the premier category in the land - as opposed to the drivers, names and teams.

I also believe you are missing the point in regards to your connection to lap times , premier category and public support.

For example - NASCAR are not the fastest category in North America yet have the largest crowd support and would be deemed to be US Racing's premier category.

For Example - V8SC are not the fastest category in Australia in 2018 yet have the largest crowd support and would be deemed to be Australia's premier category.

If TCR brings in manufacturers, who contract the best teams (Penske, 888, BJR, Prodrive etc) who then pay the household drivers the best $$$ - where do you think the fans will go watch?

challenge it then! The drivers, names and teams race every february at Bathurst. the cars are slightly faster, the fields are bigger it has manufacturer support and has been racing for over ten years. the crowds dont go. about a 5th of the supercars event

Whats going to cause them to come to a category that is as slow as 30 years ago. Nothing, not one thing.

Might be a good support category at its best

[rich07]

Regardless of which way the category goes there is one certainty.

Costs must come down and not by a small margin either. The days of having half a million dollar cars and 100k engines cannot last long in this category if it is to succeed in these times of less manufacturer dollars and the fight for sponsorship being even more fierce with so many ways a company can spend their marketing budget.

Times have changed. The category has to change with it.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by rich07

Regardless of which way the category goes there is one certainty.

Costs must come down and not by a small margin either. The days of having half a million dollar cars and 100k engines cannot last long in this category if it is to succeed in these times of less manufacturer dollars and the fight for sponsorship being even more fierce with so many ways a company can spend their marketing budget.

Times have changed. The category has to change with it.

with multiple new investors in supercars in recent years, what do you base that on?

[johnh875]

I think the key thing is what cars will get a lot of people excited to watch them race? Plain hatchbacks aren't exciting enough, hot hatches and sportscars aren't relevant to enough people. Even Mustang vs Camaro would struggle I think.

When the 5L touring car formula was launched the Commodore and Falcon had around a third of the total market, so even without the Holden vs Ford heritage the cars were relatable to a lot of people.

I'm not sure what the future will hold, perhaps something like the Pirelli World Challenge GTS category in the US, ie homologate whatever you want with a performance balance/parity so you have sports cars, muscle cars, hot hatches. It could be a return to the pre-5L days where you have a heavy powerful car that kills its tyres, a small light car that makes ground under brakes. Balancing things will be tricky, but it might be only option and would make the racing more interesting.

[Umai Naa]

Isn't GTS effectively GT4, TCR, and a homegrown class, all combined?

Or is that the IMSA one?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

challenge it then! The drivers, names and teams race every february at Bathurst. the cars are slightly faster, the fields are bigger it has manufacturer support and has been racing for over ten years. the crowds dont go. about a 5th of the supercars event

Many of those at the 1000 are bogans. The Summernats drunkard crowd. Hence the "one slab a day" limit.

The 12 hour is attended primarily by motor racing enthusiasrs, those who like hillclimbs, historic events and the like, and that is naturally a smaller audience.

Conversely, the urban street race crowd numbers are propped up by music fans -- some of which don't even bother to watch the car racing at all.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Many of those at the 1000 are bogans. The Summernats drunkard crowd. Hence the "one slab a day" limit.

The 12 hour is attended primarily by motor racing enthusiasrs, those who like hillclimbs, historic events and the like, and that is naturally a smaller audience.

Conversely, the urban street race crowd numbers are propped up by music fans -- some of which don't even bother to watch the car racing at all.

Of course they are bogans, only bogans like motorsport. Its a given

But they spend money to enjoy what they like doing and there are a lot of them

not really sure what your point is. Any replacement still has to attract them

[StueyB83]

TCR as the main game in October wouldn't work. Simply put, it's not yobbo enough to identify with the current demographic that forms the bulk of the crowd.

The Supertourer 1000's of the 90's proved that it doesn't work, and TCR would be more of the same.

TCR would be better served as a class in the 12 hour - which serves a good turn-key race car event.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

not really sure what your point is. Any replacement still has to attract them

I see!

I said it before, why not just run used [or new, it doesn't matter] NASCARs but with (BOPed) stock crate engines instead of the racing engines (since I figure the racing engine is the most expensive part of the stock car)? Chevy is there, Ford is there. NASCARs put on good shows on road courses.

Why do the cars in the Supercars series need to have working headlights or opening doors -- what does it matter, it's not the ATCC anymore?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I see!

I said it before, why not just run used [or new, it doesn't matter] NASCARs but with (BOPed) stock crate engines instead of the racing engines (since I figure the racing engine is the most expensive part of the stock car)? Chevy is there, Ford is there. NASCARs put on good shows on road courses.

Why do the cars in the Supercars series need to have working headlights or opening doors -- what does it matter, it's not the ATCC anymore?

Because its working and the fans like it.

and NASCAR do not put on a good show on race courses,They put on a novel show and is significantly inferior to supercars

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Because its working and the fans like it.

It's not working though! The field is small, grandstands are half empty, lots of cars don't have sponsorship.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's not working though! The field is small, grandstands are half empty, lots of cars don't have sponsorship.

The field isnt small, there are 26 cars, thats heaps

And the grandstands are not half empty, you made that up. At bathurst they were full, at newcastle they were full and at adelaide they were mostly full (the bulk of the crowd only sit in the grandstands during the race)

Only one car doesn't have sponsorship and it did, but the sponsor was closed by the current owner just before the start of the season, but a lack of sponsor will happen in any motorsport

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

The field isnt small, there are 26 cars, thats heaps

Lol

Shall I read out the 1999 Adelaide 500 entry list and note how there are fourteen more cars on it?

That's roughly 50% more action for trackside fans!